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  Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
General Thelema Posted by Matt on October 04, 2001 @ 06:24 PM
from the look-for-the-union-label dept.

I am a young male (18 years old) who currently calls himself a "Pagan." I suppose I mean Neo-Pagan or Wiccan by this, but those terms are far too "New Age" and trendy for my tastes.

For the past year or so, I've been heavily reading alot of Aleister Crowley's works. I have a hard time distinguishing whether Therion is a Pagan, a Christian, or something of both.

I consider Thelema to be more of a philosophy than a religion (In Crowley's mind, that was a dirty word, anyway). I'm strongly leaning toward adopting it as a personal code.

Before I step any further along this path, I was wondering about the opinions of more experienced Thelemites (and intelligent ones at that!)

So, in no particular order:

  1. Is there any conflict between Paganism and Thelema? Can one be both? Yes, I know you can, but can one practice the rituals of both traditions? Do they mix?
  2. How do Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit fit into a Pagan duotheistic theology? Are they all aspects of some "higher" God and Goddess, or the other way around?
  3. To which Aeon does Wicca, Paganism, ect. belong? I understand Gerald Gardner was a high ranking member of the OTO. I know Crowley influenced him greatly.

Well, I know this site is not about Paganism, but I thought maybe I would ask anyway. In the end, the only opinion that counts is mine, but I would be interested in hearing yours as well.



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    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Xnoubis on Friday October 05, @10:34AM
    I have a hard time distinguishing whether Therion is a Pagan, a Christian, or something of both.

    Of course, he wouldn't have referred to himself as either. "Pagan" did not have the same sense then as now. And even today, there is disagreement about what "Pagan" means. My working definition of Paganism is any creation-affirming spirituality that is polytheistic, Goddess-oriented, or both. So for me, Crowley is a Pagan.

    But for many people, especially on the West Coast, Paganism is to be distinguished from Ceremonial Magic(k) -- I don't know why. From that point of view, Crowley is a Magician, not a Pagan, nosiree, not in the least.

    Is there any conflict between Paganism and Thelema?

    No inherent conflict. There are forms of Paganism that insist that the Feminine Principle is superior to the Masculine Principle, and that wouldn't mesh with Thelema. (In Thelema, the principles are either equal, or for some of us men -- if there are no women listening -- the Masculine Principle has a slight edge. *grin*) Also, there's a strange flavor of Thelemite that only accepts forms of worship or magick that resemble things Crowley did. They wouldn't mesh with Paganism very well.

    can one practice the rituals of both traditions? Do they mix?

    Sure.

    How do Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit fit into a Pagan duotheistic theology?

    Not all forms of Paganism are "duotheistic," if I follow your meaning.

    Are they all aspects of some "higher" God and Goddess, or the other way around?

    I'll bet you'll get a lot of differing opinions on that one. To me, the Thelemic trinity places the accent on the Child (Ra-Hoor-Khuit). For those traditions that emphasize God and Goddess, the Child tends to be more of an abstraction, if it is mentioned at all.

    To which Aeon does Wicca, Paganism, ect. belong?

    I don't know that they map all that tidily. As a rule of thumb: who has authority? If it is the Priest or Priestess, we're talking Aeon of Osiris. If it is each individual, we're in the Aeon of Horus.

    I understand Gerald Gardner was a high ranking member of the OTO.

    Not high ranking. I've heard the story told and contradicted so many times, I'll leave it to others to set the record straight.

    Good luck on your quest!

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Kaladevi on Friday October 05, @06:07PM
      Xnoubis wrote:

      "As a rule of thumb: who has authority? If it is the Priest or Priestess, we're talking Aeon of Osiris. If it
      is each individual, we're in the Aeon of Horus."

      ...and then there are the Ma'atian/Typhonian flavor of thelemites who insist that the Aeon of Horus existed for all of a nanosecond and that we are now in the Aeon of Ma'at, whatever that means.

      BTW, were you aware that the expression "rule of thumb" originated in British Common Law? It refers to a husband's right to beat his spouse with a switch the width of his thumb.

      Xnoubis also wrote:
      "In Thelema, the principles are either equal, or for some of us men -- if there are no women listening -- the
      Masculine Principle has a slight edge. *grin*"

      Would that be a slightly dull edge or a sharp, double-edge, darling?

      The Phallus of Hadit in-forms Nuit. Woman's yoni is a temporary temple for man's lingam (until ejaculatory ecstasy or exhaustion of the energy terminates the union). Woman's womb is a temporary temple for gestation of a new life.
      The Feminine Principle is the Collective Unconscious and there's plenty of unconsciousness and unconscious behavior in the world, today. Therefore, by definition it is temporary until the Masculine Principle of humankind's collective Consciousness is uplifted via Love to fill the Void. Then, the Masculine Principle will be supreme. And not until then. In the meantime, I adore the Pan-potential and am in awe of the process. ;-)


      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by Xnoubis on Tuesday October 09, @07:01PM
        Exquisite...


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Meliny on Friday October 05, @10:48AM
    I don't usually post here, only lurk, but I'm avoiding a job, so I'll give this one a shot. *grin*

    Is there any conflict between Paganism and Thelema? Can one be both? Yes, I know you can, but can one practice the rituals of both traditions? Do they mix?

    I see Paganism as the umbrella under which sit Wicca, Thelema, Asatru and an assortment of other sects. To the extent that any one of us think of Thelema as a religion, then we are also Pagans. If we view Thelema as a philosophy or a system of magickal methodology, then we are not necessarily Pagan.


    2. How do Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit fit into a Pagan duotheistic theology? Are they all aspects of some "higher" God and Goddess, or the other way around?

    My Paganism is not duotheistic any more than my real life is. Sure, I'm female and I know there are males in the world, but the wide range of personalities and behaviors dictate a multifaceted theism (for me).

    3. To which Aeon does Wicca, Paganism, ect. belong?

    Is magick an art of a science? It all depends on who you ask and the time of day. Some questions/answers are just like that.

    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by nexist on Friday October 05, @11:54AM
    First, I have to address the following.

    I consider Thelema to be more of a philosophy than a religion (In Crowley's mind, that was a dirty word, anyway).

    Not true. While it is pretty cheeky to put statements in a dead guys mouth, it is pretty apparant that Crowley's problem was with specific religious expressions, rather than with Religion in general. At times he conflated the two, but it is obvious that Crowley considered Thelema to be a Religion (& a Religious Philosophy, though that is a redundant expression).

    As for the questions:

    Is there any conflict between Paganism and Thelema? Can one be both? Yes, I know you can, but can one practice the rituals of both traditions? Do they mix?

    They are mixed constantly. NeoPaganism, being a reconstruction, has filled its gaps from diverse sources, many of which are the same sources which were utilized in the syncretization of Thelema.

    How do Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit fit into a Pagan duotheistic theology? Are they all aspects of some "higher" God and Goddess, or the other way around?

    You mean "Wiccan" duotheistic theology. Paganism is typically poly/pantheistic -- & the ancients (in general) would have been pretty pissed if you tried to explain to them that there god was merely another face for some other god.

    Nuit, Hadit & Ra-Hoor-Khuit map onto the fairly universal and reoccuring theme of the divine family (you don't really think that the Xtians invented the Trinity).

    The rest is up to personal interpretation. I feel that all the gods & goddesses are general distinct entities, though I find it useful to group them via archetype (as per Frazier) but just because Baldr, Othin, Osiris, Dionysus, and Jesus all belong to the Slain/Risen God Archetype does not mean that they are interchangeable -- each fits the culture in which it exists... but I am digressing.

    To which Aeon does Wicca, Paganism, ect. belong? I understand Gerald Gardner was a high ranking member of the OTO. I know Crowley influenced him greatly.

    There is evidence that Gerald Gardner was a Knight of the East and West in the OTO, & that he had a charter to form a Camp of Minervals. Most prevelent Thelemic manifestations are hybrids, containing elements of both the Aeon of Osiris & Aeon of Horus -- a necessary condition given the nature of Humanity's Spiritual & Socio-Political Evolution at this time. Eventually, as Humanity evolves further, more & more "pure" forms will evolve to keep pace.

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by misha on Friday October 05, @03:08PM
      At times he conflated the two, but it is obvious that Crowley considered Thelema to be a Religion (& a Religious Philosophy, though that is a redundant expression).

      This may be another example of paradox in Crowley's writings, but he pretty obviously did not consider Thelema to be a religion. In Magick without Tears, Chapter 31 (Is Thelema a "New Religion?"), he writes:

      "Call it a new religion, then, if it so please your Gracious Majesty; but I confess that I fail to see what you will have gained by so doing, and I feel bound to add that you might easily cause a great deal of misunderstanding, and work a rather stupid kind of mischief.

      "The word does not occur in The Book of the Law."

      Just a thought.


      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by Xnoubis on Friday October 05, @03:36PM
        I've generally been in the "Thelema is so a religion" camp, but I've recently had a thought in the opposite direction.

        One of the developmental functions of religion is to provide a solution for the crisis that occurs when one reaches the limits of egocentricity. Even if I were to completely get my way my entire life, what good will it do me when I'm dead? Religion might say, "You will be rewarded in the next life for virtue in this one," or it might say, "There is no real reward in this world of illusion; seek the underlying truth." In any event, it attempts to provide a larger context for existence than self-reward.

        Thelema doesn't do that. One might already have discovered a larger context for oneself, and find in Thelema a portal to deeper mysteries. Or one might still be working within the egocentric context, and find in Thelema a justification for it. Or one might have elements of both, not thoroughly integrated.

        So although Thelema has many of the trappings of religion, and clearly possesses a spiritual dimension, it has little or nothing to offer for the relief of egocentricity. If a Thelemite needs such relief, he or she generally has to find it elsewhere.


        • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
          by Fra THA;M on Friday October 05, @04:24PM
          One can beleive in 'higher' orders of Intelligences if one is inclined to, but be avowedly athiestic, materialist or a humanist. such beings do not constitute God(s). The very etymology of religion is bond, or binding oneself to a diety. I bow to no one and nothing, excepting my angel, who is a convinient term for an active, often inaccessable part of my psyche. I desire to be slave to no one, regardless of who or what it is. Until someone offers me proof, proof beyond semantic games, warm fuzzy feelings, drug-induced illuminations or faith, I will continue to be inclined to think that theological systems are the last bastions of cowards. Such proof has never been offered, and I doubt it ever will. Deus Est Homo...In Homini Salus, in man alone is salvation. There can be no god beyond the Yechidah, that spark of divinity that exists conterminous within us. No God But Man, that collective dynamic force!!!!


          • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
            by GM on Tuesday October 09, @07:40PM
            Si Valetis, Valeo

            I guess we should just ignore all the stuff Crowley wrote that we don't like?

            Pax Profundus,
            GM

            "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! Refuse this, and fall under the curse of destiny. Divide will against itself, the result is impotence and strife, strife-in-vain. The Law condemns no man. Accept the Law, and everything is lawful. Refuse the Law, you put yourself beyond its pale. It is the Law that Jesus Christ, or rather the Gnostic tradition of which the Christian-legend is a degredation, attempted to teach; but nearly every word he said was misinterpreted and garbled by his enemies, particularly by those who called themselves his disciples. In any case the Aeon was not ready for a Law of Freedom. Of all his followers only St. Augustine appears to have got even a glimmer of what he meant.

            A further attempt to teach t his law was made through Sir Edward Kelly at the end of the sixteenth century. The bondage of orthodoxy prevented his words from being heard, or understood. In many other ways has the spirit of truth striven with man, and partial shadows of this truth have been the greatest allies of science and philosophy. Only now has success been attained. A perfect vehicle was found, in the message enshrined in a jeweled casket; that is to say, in a book with the injunction 'Change not as much as a style of a letter.' This book is reproduced in facsimile, in order that there shall be no possibility of corrupting it. Here, then, we have an absolutely fixed and definite standpoint for the foundation of an universal religion.

            We have the Key to the resolution of all human problems, both philosophical and practical. If we have seemed to labor at proof, our love must be the excuse for our infirmity; for we know well that which is written in the Book:

            'Success is your proof.'

            We ask no more than one witness; and we call upon Time to take an Oath, and testify to the Truth of our plea."


            Chapter VIII - Genesis Libri Al - Equinox of The Gods - 1991, 93 Publishing


            • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
              by Mordecai on Tuesday October 09, @08:31PM
              >I guess we should just ignore all the stuff Crowley wrote that we don't like?

              Far better to ignore it than to enslave oneself to it. Personally, I find what Crowley has to say on almost anything quite interesting, but if it disagrees with my head, heart, and gut I have no qualms about following my own path. I think that marks the difference between a Thelemite and a Crowleyan.


            • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
              by Fra THA;M on Tuesday October 09, @09:32PM
              Yeah! A Game. A variation of that Xtian game called Bible-Thump. So I'll make my move. Crowley was a living paradox, who often contradicted himself. A beautiful human frailty. The etymology of Religion is to bind. But Bind nothing! Here's some Crowley fat to chew:

              -"For the Gods are the enemies of Man; it is nature that man must overcome ere he enters into his kingdom. The true God is man. In man are all things hidden. Of these the Gods, Nature, Time, all the powers of the Universe are rebellious slaves.It is these that men must fight and conquer..." MITAP pg 152-53.

              And from Liber AL, a few...

              -I,22: Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.

              -I,41: The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the aeons! Hell.

              Wait a minute...Nothing, I mean Nuit, just told to bind nothing in verse 22, but she was just talking about love being a bond...ah no, My faith has been shattered. But seriously,

              -I,58: I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.

              Certainty while we live about what happens when we die? Sure, we dissolve into the body of Nuit. We blissfully cease to be. There is no God at the head of some religion waiting to offer salvation to us.

              --II,23: I am alone: there is no God where I am.

              How sad and lonely. Not.

              -II,58: Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was. Yet there are masked ones my servants: it may be that yonder beggar is a King. A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test: but a beggar cannot hide his poverty.

              None cast down or lifted up? Why have a religion when there are no fairy-tale beings we should make obeisance to. I grow weary of this game, because this is just my opinion and you could easily be completely correct. Bye Bye.


              • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
                by . on Wednesday October 10, @04:08PM
                [In the Shells]



      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by Tau Aleph on Friday October 05, @04:31PM
        Thanks, Misha!

        I must have read that chapter many years ago, but I had completely forgotten about it.

        I've added this data to EGnU's philosophy page in the section about Thelema

        93/696
        Aleph
        Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis


    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Nekial on Friday October 05, @09:08PM
      93

      I must agree with Misha. Having scoured Law is for All, Maigick, Magick w/o Tears, etc., for another thread, it seems Crowley thought all religions were foolishness, whereas Thelema achieved the "goal of all Religion", succeeding where they fail. I don't think he ever refers to it as a religion, though he says in Magick, page 444 (refering to The Book of the Law): "Here, then, we have an absolutely fixed and definite standpoint for the foundation of an universal religion."

      The context is important, so please read it. He seems everywhere to think of 'universal religion', and 'the goal of all religions' in a very different sense than he does 'religion'.

      93 93/93
      ~N


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Fra THA;M on Friday October 05, @12:51PM
    Crowley loudly advocated atheism, and more than once said it was intrinsically linked with Thelema. The label of Thelema is applied more to a set of personal codes one chooses to live one's life by, and less devotion to any concept of Diety. One could drape the skeleton their theology in the symbol sets of Thelema, but what would be the point? Religion is a refuge for those who are afraid of the implications of what it means to be alone in a godless universe. Thelema has enriched me, and illuminated this existential void; given insights into where I as an autonomous individual fit into a world devoid of plan or purpose.

    And the wealth of 'religious' symbolism in Thelema? Allegories and metaphors. When confronted by an inability of language to communicate profound changes in conciousness and personal evolution, Crowley created an elastic vocabulary of symbols and signs to express these concepts. A language with the characteristics and ability to express fluid and content-dense ideas in a simple manner. Thelema is a vernacular that can reduce ideas that some individuals can express only in reams of text, and explain them in a simple phrase that still mantains the integrity of the idea.

    And Gerald Gardner. I like him. A Nudist with a penchant for mild S+M roleplaying. There is strong evidence that his reinvention of Paganism was authored by Crowley. In many ways a phony, but a dynamic and admirable person regardless.

    May you all hate me for my viewes.

    Amen.

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by nexist on Friday October 05, @01:29PM
      Why would your espousal of the trendy position of most Thelemites cause you to be hated?

      Could you provide support for your idea that Atheism is "intrinsicly" related to Thelema?


      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by Fra THA;M on Friday October 05, @01:58PM
        Off the top of my head I reference the ?introduction to Liber 777, where Crowley describes the varying types of atheists, and judges the soundness of their varying philosophies. Another is found in the preface to the World's Tragedy, where he emphatically states that one can't be a Crowleyite (don't split hairs or play semantics and make a distinction between crowleyite and thelemite) until one can exclaim, Thank God I'm an Atheist. There are others. When I go home I'll take a look and leave you some references.

        I had no idea my viewe was trendy. It's a common sensical conclusion I came to independantly of anyone. Nifty.


        • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
          by Xnoubis on Friday October 05, @02:12PM
          "Thank God I'm an Atheist" is a paradox, right? I hate to pick apart a funny joke, but it doesn't consistently advocate either atheism or theism as far as I can see.


          • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
            by J. A. on Friday October 05, @03:57PM
            Unless the non-atheist view of god was an illusion.

            THelema would do well to purge its spies and traitors from the bunch.


          • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
            by Fra THA;M on Friday October 05, @04:27PM
            Check out the introduction to 777, where he enters into a discourse on different theories of atheism.


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Nekial on Friday October 05, @09:47PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

    1. Conflict? Sure. Thelema is not a pagan religion. But you could mix the rituals, as a pagan. As a thelemite, most or all of the pagan rituals would be moot.

    2. Well, obviously thelema's not duotheistic, so it doesn't fit. The thelemic 'trinity' are understood to be mere expressions/extentions of Kether. Not gods in their own right.

    3. Paganism and Wicca in their traditional forms go back to the old aeon. This, now, is the aeon of the crowned and conquering child. Anything that doesn't reflect that...

    The chief difference between them, as I see it, is using magick to get by (and/or honor the universe, etc.), and engaging in magick to perform the Great Work. To refine/perfect the self/spirit. To re-unite with the eternal divine.

    What do you want to do with religion/magick? That's the question.

    Love is the law, love under will.

    ~N

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Mordecai on Saturday October 06, @03:20PM
      >Well, obviously thelema's not duotheistic

      "None, breathed the light, faint & faery, of the stars, and two."


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Entaru on Saturday October 06, @10:20AM
    It all begins with a question.

    Who do I want to be?

    From there everything else is semantics..

    You will find there will be a whole host of people in life that will refer to you as pagan or neo-pagan no matter the mantle you've taken for yourself (save the major religions of course.).

    Paganisim is a broad term that I've found most people use in my area to mean other.

    I'm of the beliefe that you explore all possible solutions for yourself... Mix them up...and what comes out is what works for you.

    I guess that's not a popular opinion.

    But if you follow another. then what have you accomplished? if you follow yourself. what can they take from you?

    i.e. I'm not a thelemite.. nor am I a wiccan or really anything that's classified. But I have done some study into crowley and I've found some of his concepts to be very useful. No one can take that from me because any argument of theirs will be semantic and based on their perceptions.

    all I say when someone asks me about it is that I don't like ritual magick. all the pomp and circumstance just dosen't suit me.

    but to each their own.

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Mordecai on Saturday October 06, @03:05PM
      >It all begins with a question.
      >
      >Who do I want to be?
      >
      >From there everything else is semantics..

      In what way is the question "Who do I want to be?" not semantics while everything else is?

      >but to each their own.

      Semantics, but true nonetheless.


      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by Entaru on Monday October 08, @10:48PM
        >In what way is the question "Who do I want to
        > be?" not semantics while everything else is?

        Got me there...it's semantics also. I guess the more you focus on a seperation from semantics the more mired in it you can become.

        food for thought I guess


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Will on Saturday October 06, @10:34AM
    those terms are far too "New Age" and trendy for my tastes

    If your thoughts are swayed by trends, then you probably have other issues to work out besides your nomenclature.

    I have a hard time distinguishing whether Therion is a Pagan, a Christian, or something of both.

    I won't split hares on Therion vs. Crowley as the guts tend to sully the issue. As for Crowley's religious tendencies, it depends on the era of the work. I don't know what a pagan is, so I can't comment there.

    I consider Thelema to be more of a philosophy than a religion

    Crowley rarely distinguished between his use of "religion" as institution (based on society) and "religion" as a re-union with god (based on etymology). I suppose he figured people would be able to spot the meanings.

    I'm strongly leaning toward adopting it as a personal code.

    I encourage you to read the 3rd chapter of AL a few more times before you make any rash decisions.

    Is there any conflict between Paganism and Thelema?

    I don't know. What's a pagan?

    How do Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit fit into a Pagan duotheistic theology?

    Read Crowley's version of the Tao Te King. Taoism isn't exactly theistic, but it certainly emphasizes the dual nature of the universe.

    To which Aeon does Wicca, Paganism, etc. belong?

    Does it matter?

    In the end, the only opinion that counts is mine

    No, not even your own opinion really counts.

    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by ptah on Saturday October 06, @12:58PM
    You say that you have called yourself Pagan.

    Western (esp. American) culture.

    Why do some people (esp. WOMEN!) without hesitation reach in side for a private and holy organ and hold it out blinking, wet, steaming and embarrassed into the harsh light of day.
    Where it now looks like a pungent pre-cooked meal or something equally gross.

    Things were perfectly fine when it was vital and occult. (that means hidden, in case you have no dictionary to hand). Now there's an awkward silence. Must be the Tao seeking adjustment.

    Some things are best left unsaid. Therion was a Big Beast, and that's different. Not many would want to act like him today. Make those awfull sacrifices. Those horrible enlightening Human Mistakes. Do you have the oversized, hmm you-know-what, anyway?

    How do you pick out a modern Thelemite?

    I guess you could easily pick out a self-deluded pagan beardy and his wench.

    You would never know whether I was a Thelemite or not.

    And I hope you would feel ashamed if you were to ask the question of me. Tho' if you hail from the "land of the free", perhaps you might not.

    Every Man and Every Woman is a Star.

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Mordecai on Saturday October 06, @03:11PM
      >Do you have the oversized, hmm you-know-what, anyway?

      Whether or not a you-know-what is oversized depends entirely upon the you-know-what that the you-know-what is you-know-whating.


      • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
        by J. A. on Saturday October 06, @03:52PM
        Or in other words, I think he who goes by the name 'ptah' (not a fashioner in any sense though!) has obviously missed the spirit of Thelema entirely. Then what is he doing 'in' it? Spinning down into the void I might add. May you find a big you-know-what someday!


        • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
          by ptah on Thursday October 11, @03:48PM
          Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law

          The "you-know-what" would be the earthly parallel to the Sun our real lord.
          A good quality banana.

          We converted lots of that solar potential in our flashy automobiles (banana-extensions) and gardens.
          Ompeda! What is the price of "gas" these days?
          Bhalasti! How much are imported bananas?
          "woooosh................bang!!"
          2 million dollars, and another cow shed bites the dust.
          Just what the Big Banana ordered.

          It is my will to be able to call myself civilised.
          I'm going to get my fat arse on to a bicycle, buy less shit and pay more for my bananas.

          Love is the Law, Love under Will


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Martin Hettland on Friday October 19, @05:42AM
    Hi Matt!

    1. I presume one can, in the case of modern paganism as in Wicca of the Gardner school, this tradition is actualy derived from Thelema.

    2. As I see it Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit are arbitrary words to describe one's development towards the absolute.

    3. As I wrote in above Wicca would be an ofshot from Crowley and the socalled "New Aeon".

    You consider Thelema to be more of a philosophy than a religion.
    Me think you are right in this.

    Thelmema has 'the goal of religion' which is unity with the absolute.
    Like the goal of Islam is unity with the personal absolute 'Allah' in the 'Paradise', like the goal of Christianity is unity with the absolute in the person of 'God' in 'Heaven', like the goal of Hinduism is unity with 'The Unpersonal Absolute' 'Brahman' after ending one's
    line of rebirths, like the goal of Buddhism is unity with the absolute through reaching 'Nirvana' and the end of one's rebirths, like the goal of Judaism is unity with the absolute in the person of 'G-d' in the world beyond this, and so on.

    In Thelema this 'unity with the absolute' is reached in this life, as describe by Crowley in 'Magick without Tears' chapter 71: Morality(2)

    "There is a highly popular school of "occultists" which is 99% an escape-mechanism. The fear of Death is one of the bogeys; but far deeper is the root-fear_ _ _fear of being alone, of being oneself, of life itself. With this goes the sense of guilt.

    The Book of the Law cuts directly at the root of all this calamitous, this infamous tissue of falshood.

    What is the meaning of Initiation? It is the Path to the realisation of your Self as the sole, the supreme, the absolute of all Truth, beaty, Purity, Perfection!"

    Crowley did not focuse on death and the condition beyond death like other religions and occultists.

    In 'Confessions' the chapter "What is Freemasonry?" there is an exampel of this:

    "We have already decided to incarnate, and our birth certificates are with our bankers. We do not have to worry about these matters, and we cannot alter them if we would; death, and what follows death, are equally certain, and equally able to take care of themselves. Our soul preoccupation is how to best make use of our lives."
    And later: "All subsequent Degrres of the O.T.O. after the IV*(fourth)degree are concerned with the Teaching of Initiates with regard to Life."

    As already mentioned Thelema has 'the goal of religion', but it allso has 'the method of science'. In science the act is not indipendent of the description(as in traditional religion), but the description is dependent on the act.
    All scientific assertions are temporary.
    This means that science can not be dogmatic like traditional religion.
    And using 'the method of science' in Thelema can protect it from the dogmatism of more traditional religion.

    Sincerely:

    Martin Hettland

    • Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
      by Martin Hettland on Tuesday October 23, @06:43AM
      In short:


      "The way is fluid, but the goal is set."


      Regards: Martin Hettland.


    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Gawain on Tuesday January 01, @02:50PM
    1. No conflict unless one seeks one.It is the patriarchal mode to say there is only one way.
    2. Do what THY will. Make it up as you go along while staying within your guidelines.
    3. Wicca means to bend .It is a form of Tao from Europe.
    4.The old heirarchies of OTO ect. are finished .
    There are no leaders. Place one foot forward of the other and you are on your own path.

    Re: Paganism, Thelema, and Crowley.....Oh my!
    by Ataniell Rising on Sunday March 17, @07:50PM
    Hi Matt,

    I have some questions for you.....

    1. "Pagan" is a term that doesn't really mean much. You can be a Thelemite and be "Pagan" but what really counts is your Will. what are you doing about your Will today?

    2. I don't think it really matters what you call the Gods. We are all Gods/Stars anyway. Why would you limit yourself to two gods, or try to force yourself and other gods into a divine hierarchy?

    3. What Aeon are you from? That's what matters. Is your emphasis on submitting to the Gods without, or knowing the God within?

    93! Ataniell

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