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  Lo Mega Maniac
Self Realization Posted by Xnoubis on March 15, 2002 @ 12:53 PM
from the I-sore dept.

What is the relationship between mystical union with the Divine and megalomania, or the delusion of omnipotence? What tools does Thelema provide us with to discern the difference between the two?


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    Re: Lo Mega Maniac
    by mokshapuppy on Saturday March 16, @05:07PM
    the difference between mystical union and megalomania is the difference between essence and ego

    to unite with the divine is to experience omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, but these qualities do not belong to ego

    if the ego attempts to appropriate the qualities of essence, megalomania can result

    (maybe megalomania can have other causes too, i don't know)

    if thelema has any tool for this discernment, maybe it is megalomania itself

    the absence of a tool is the tool

    the book of the law has two separate lines of exegesis, one from essence and one from ego, but perhaps this is saying too much

    • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
      by G. Gordan Motta on Sunday March 17, @04:59PM
      How can you be sure that a mystic isn't simply a timid megalomaniac?


      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
        by iporshu on Sunday March 17, @08:57PM
        One can never be Sure.


    • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
      by mermaid on Monday March 18, @08:03PM
      Interesting points. just a thought: the difference might be in attitude and in overall approach to life: the megalomaniac might reap only occasional + temporary senses of 'victory' and accomplishment -feeling 'hollow' much of the time, and scrambling for the next 'high'. This resembles what Erich Fromm and others have described as pathological narcissism...the truly connected on the other hand might have a sense of peace much of the time and feel happy if not joyous much (though not necessarily all) of the time -even if nothing too exciting is happening externally. In short, this person would seem more balanced and neither overly proud nor ashamed for either one's worldly or spiritual accomplishments. Might be someone who laughs alot, too. From the objective perspective for someone dealing with such a person the criterion might be something along these lines: after dealing with a megalomaniac one tends to feel sickish as if one had eaten twinkies or somthing, but after hanging out with a person 'in touch' one is apt to feel one has eaten a nice, healthful soup...in short, 'alright'.

      regards, mermaid


      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
        by Mordecai on Tuesday March 19, @04:13PM
        This seems a perfectly reasonable way to decide who one wants to hang out with, but it also illustrates the fact that this whole question is best seen as an observer's judgment, not a self-assessable state of being. I've known people who experienced states in which they had no doubt that they were "truly connected", but when they viewed the events later, from an observer's standpoint, they considered themselves to have been "megalomaniacal".


        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
          by mermaid on Tuesday March 19, @10:58PM
          Hi. Hmmmm...well, accounts I've read/heard of re: so called 'cosmic consciousness' suggest that not only does the participant experience himself or herself as 'god' but experiences all other life forms are 'god' as well. If a person emerging from this state declares that only he or she is 'god' and no one else, then I'd probably suspect that person of ego-tripping.

          regards, mermaid


          • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
            by Xnoubis on Wednesday March 20, @09:39AM
            Ooh! Works for me...


    Re: Lo Mega Maniac
    by iporshu on Sunday March 17, @04:19AM
    Who Am I to think that I Know the difference between pleasure+pain, right + wrong,"This+That"...How can I discern between any one thing or any other thing;for if I do so "there cometh Hurt"but if I do not confound the space marks,then I realize that the Two are Neccessarily One, and that the One is Neccessarily Three;PEACE. This is that which THELEMA provides us with: the Law of Love; the FORMULA of Love Under Will:{ the two are necessarily One and the One is Neccessarily Three, and ALL is Neccessarilly NONE=
    The Law of Love. Amoun
    Do What Thou Wilt!

    Re: Lo Mega Maniac
    by Ataniell Rising on Monday March 18, @10:49AM
    I would have to say that results are a good clue.

    If your life sucks, you have no money, you have no friends, and you're not actually DOING anything, you probably are not there yet. People forget that magick is supposed to accomplish something, either internally or externally. If your life seems very pathetic, you probably need to keep working on it.

    Of course, this is very basic and obvious, the sort of thing most people ignore. I've met too many people in the magickal/Pagan community who seem to be made of sour grapes, and who haven't ever achieved anything of note yet think they are the bomb. I try very hard not to be one of them.

    • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
      by Mordecai on Monday March 18, @01:01PM
      It's always a lot easier to put down other people for not living up to one's own "high standards" than to look honestly at oneself and see if one measures up. The most arrogant critics of other Thelemites I've ever met are invariably pathetic losers in their own lives (not that they seem able to recognize it); they carp relentlessly about others while slaving away at boring jobs they don't like, unable to sustain a single creative effort or a meaningful relationship. But they do have their uses. They make it pretty simple to be happy with one's own imperfect, but at least honestly lived, life.


      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
        by iporshu on Monday March 18, @01:51PM
        I try to combat arrogance by remembering this:
        That which I see in any other, is first and foremost within me, else I could not perceive of its existence.

        I have a good idea, why don't you try to remember{and Understand} it as well.


        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
          by Xnoubis on Monday March 18, @01:58PM
          If the irony here is intentional, this is actually quite good.


        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
          by Mordecai on Monday March 18, @03:02PM
          I agree up to a point. Up to the point where such an attitude becomes an excuse to blame the victims. I don't have to quietly accept someone ripping me off, just because I once in my childhood shoplifted a candy-bar.


      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
        by Ataniell Rising on Monday March 18, @02:33PM
        That was kind of my point. All the people who go around talking about how great they are and how they've Made It and you haven't, yet haven't got the props to back it up.

        I'm well aware that my life is a Work in Progress... and I'm OK with that.


        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
          by iporshu on Monday March 18, @05:06PM
          To Be or Not to Be...either you are, or you are not, only you need know for sure.

          "props"
          >> who needs props? i know! the EGO!
          many men have walked the Earth and died,and many more will; and Not a One of them will See the Face of GOD, for it is not given to a Man to See the Face of GOD....Only a GOD can See the Face of a GOD.

          take it any way you choose,
          iporshu


          • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
            by adrian dobbie on Tuesday March 19, @03:05AM
            93

            The first stumbling block in the career of anyone choosing the Western Occult path rather than the Eastern appears to be that of megalomania. In my opinion anyone who seeks to lord it up over others claiming 'enlightenment' but unable to demonstrate such by excercising peace, tolerance, truth and the willingness to offer help to others on the path has fallen at the first hurdle. To paraphrase Crowley: The erstwhile magician will encounter vision after blinding vision, will believe him(her)self to have unravelled all the mysteries of the universe, but all the while will be deluding him(her)self. Poor Ape.

            I have a great deal of respect for Israel Regardie and his proposition that anyone seeking to use the Western Occult path had better engage in a preliminary round of psyhoanalysis before resorting to Magick in order to familiarise the self with the hidden aspects of the psyche. Of course this is a prohibitive measure for many, but I think the argument holds water. I'd be interested to hear what other Beastbayers think about this.

            93 93/93


            • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
              by iporshu on Tuesday March 19, @12:55PM
              I think a Preliminary round of psychoanalasis will assist, but so long as there is a grain of Ego in the individual, Magick is a danger to that person and all those connected to him{her}.

              It may prove useful to someone to point out that a good way to check oneself for symptoms of megalomania is to analize {more specificly}one Intentions;especially before beginning any Magickal Work. If the intentions are egocentric, then a certain degree of megalomania is sure to follow succes.

              I would suggest that an individual destroy the ego first{ after the K+C of the H.G.A.},and only thereafter begin to practice Magick;to be a bit on the safe side.

              iporshu


              • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                by Mordecai on Tuesday March 19, @04:30PM
                Crowley's suggested safeguard was not to refrain from magick before achieving K & C, but rather to dedicate all one's magick to achieving it. In Chapter XXI of MTP he writes of the attainment of K & C: "It is the raising of the complete man in a vertical straight line. Any deviation from this line tends to become black magic. Any other operation is black magic."


                • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                  by Ataniell Rising on Tuesday March 19, @05:51PM
                  That makes sense to me. Completion is the key. I think a lot of people (perhaps especially women) already feel that there are pieces of themselves destroyed and split off all over the place. If "ego" is an illusion then of course one gets rid of it, but I've seen so many definitions of "ego" that would indicate that being "egoless" would also be to be "will-less" which doesn't seem like a great thing. But of course the HGA is in touch with one's Will... the K&C of the HGA appears to be identical in some respects with knowledge of the Will.


                  • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                    by iporshu on Tuesday March 19, @07:50PM
                    "the K+C of the HGA appears to be identical in some respects with the knowledge of the Will"

                    yes!Yes!!YES!!!

                    The Knowledge of the Will signals the Beginning of the K+C of the HGA{if that Knowledge is True!}. For only Ones HGA can Truly Tell one who One IS and what Ones Purpose is. NO MAN can tell you this!

                    The Knowledge of Ones True-Will is one of the Greatest of gifts;the Mark of spiritual puberty.

                    but once you know Right From Wrong{according to your True-Will}then you can be held accountable for your actions{a minor downside!}.

                    And in Time the relationship will grow more intimate,if you abide by the Word of your HGA.

                    >> I too have seen many definitions of EGO,it is hard to decide which one is the True one.
                    Look Within.

                    Do What Thou Wilt!

                    iporshu


                    • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                      by Ataniell Rising on Tuesday March 19, @09:07PM
                      Thanks, iporshu-- that's exactly the line my thought process has been taking.

                      You know, I read the Master Therion for the first time when I was 17, but it didn't quite sink in back then :) I wasn't ready yet.

                      In the past few years I have begun to get a sense of who I *really am*... but there's this fear I have to deal with, because now that I know, I'm morally obliged to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, even if I'm not completely sure what I know and all I can keep doing is moving in the direction of the wave.

                      Mordecai, sorry if you thought I was being critical-- this is just stuff I've noticed in my magickal study. People going around saying how superior they were, and I had to question it when I was happier than they were. (Which, in some cases, wasn't saying much, sad to say.)

                      I used to be quite "megalomaniac" myself in my late teens and early 20's, then got a big blow to it in grad school when I found out a lot of the stuff I had believed about wicca, gnosticism, etc. just wasn't so. I don't think I have ever been so disillusioned.

                      I'm not speaking to chastise anyone thinking they're beneath me. I'm speaking as someone who knows what a rotting temptation it can be! I've had, like many folks, these moments of brain-melting bliss in meditation, etc... but I'm not sure what it means if I do nothing about it in my daily life. Not much is what it seems like. My sense of what my HGA is/will be like when I really get to know her is, that she expects more of me than to just surf the aethyrs in a fog of brain-bliss.


                      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                        by iporshu on Tuesday March 19, @09:59PM
                        Dear, Tiamat

                        NO MAN can speak for your Angel,as has been said.
                        But I must Dare to tell you this, in response to ".......she expects more of me than to just surf the aethyrs in a fog of brain-bliss":

                        it is all about the Seed; an Acorn becomes an Oak{maybe}, a rose seed becomes a Rose{maybe}, and a Man seed SHALL BE a God{maybe}...

                        Our Angels can wish no better thing for Us than to expand to the fullest of our individual Natures:

                        Achieve Hadit! the One True Point of View{and more!}
                        Do What Thou Wilt!
                        { i know, i talk too much, but i think it is with good intention?}

                        iporshu


                        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                          by Ataniell Rising on Wednesday March 20, @01:13AM
                          I think your intentions (and your talking) are just fine, and I appreciate the encouragement. I do want to be the fullest and best me I can.

                          93!
                          Tiamat Ataniell


                      • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                        by Mordecai on Wednesday March 20, @09:56AM
                        Mordecai, sorry if you thought I was being critical-- this is just stuff I've noticed in my magickal study. People going around saying how superior they were, and I had to question it when I was happier than they were. (Which, in some cases, wasn't saying much, sad to say.)

                        I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was agreeing with you; your criteria for assessing someone else's state seem both rational and practical to me. I was just amplifying it by pointing out the necessarily subjective character of such assessments, even when they are self-assessments! I think it could help "megalomaniacs" to detach from their obsessions if they would remember that states like "being a Magister Templi" aren't necessarily "scientific facts recognizable by any objective observer".


                        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                          by Ataniell Rising on Thursday March 21, @12:22PM
                          OK. :)

                          I couldn't quite tell whether you were agreeing or being sarcastic, thinking that I was judging other folks on what they do and don't have... which I usually don't do, but if someone's going to tell me they're all that and a bag of chips, I tend to think, so where's the chips?

                          I am also somewhat suspicious, given that these states are not objectively verifiable, of people who go around talking all the time about their accomplishments on the inner planes.

                          I always think... "um, who are you trying to convince?" Because it really doesn't matter to ME if so and so is a Magister Templi. If they have knowledge of a specific area then I may seek them out if I want to know the answer to a question, but I don't really think that anyone else can say what my Will is. Obedience is so not what all of this is about!

                          It's like that kid you went to school with (everyone went to school with him) who was always talking about all of the girls he'd had sex with. And who always seemed to be stuck at home bored whenever you wanted to talk to him, rather than out and about getting laid.

                          93! Ataniell


                          • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                            by Mordecai on Thursday March 21, @01:11PM
                            >I couldn't quite tell whether you were agreeing or being sarcastic

                            This one of the major drawbacks of communicating on the Internet. Is there an appropriate "emoticon" to indicate sarcasm? The ;-) winking is the best I've seen, but it still lacks something.

                            BTW, your refreshingly sane attitude toward this and other issues is a very welcome change from some of the (dare I say) paranoid ravings we've become used to here at Beast Bay.


                            • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                              by Ataniell Rising on Thursday March 21, @05:22PM
                              Thanks! I'm on a lot of Asian-related mailing lists and sometimes we use ^_~ or ^_- on those. I also like ::weg:: for wicked, evil grin.

                              I'm glad you are enjoying my posts. I am very happy to have been so pleasantly received here-- Xnoubis sent me a lovely email yesterday.

                              (I've been on a number of pagan lists in the past where they thought I was too sarcastic, or not sufficiently "nice".)

                              I hope you're enjoying the Holy Days, too! I'm working on a project till this weekend, but I've been doing readings every day and meditating on the trumps. And the weather has been beautiful.

                              93! Ataniell


                • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
                  by iporshu on Tuesday March 19, @08:06PM
                  In a sense, all Action is Magick, so I cannot disagree with the point you make{DAMN!}.

                  If one Must do Magick the certainly it should be dedicated to the K+C of the HGA.

                  ...it is a lot more fun disagreeing with you{lol}.

                  iporshu


            • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
              by Mordecai on Tuesday March 19, @04:21PM
              Before doing anything at all it is beneficial to "resolve one's psychological complexes" (or "integrate", or "achieve the Knowledge and Conversation", or however you care to designate a satisfactory level of psychological insight into the relation of "self" to "reality"). Whether "psychoanalysis" in its various social manifestations is the best way to achieve that depends, I think, upon the individuals involved.


        • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
          by Padre Gay McCloud on Friday March 22, @04:44PM
          Maybe it isn't about "props" or toys? What if those things are mere distractions? What if they are meant to make some one feel as thought they are the bomb when they are little more than dilutional?

          Isn't this the state of most people in America today?


          • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
            by Xnoubis on Friday March 22, @04:51PM
            "dilutional"... I like that...


          • Re: Lo Mega Maniac
            by Ataniell Rising on Friday March 22, @06:03PM
            No, it's not about "toys". I meant the other sense of the word "props"-- as in "Kiri, I gotta give you your props, girlfriend..."


    Re: Lo Mega Maniac
    by IORasputen on Thursday March 21, @02:29AM
    93,93/93
    What is the relationship between mystical union with the Divine and megalomania...? simply the division of joy and love.


    What tools does Thelema provide us with to discern the difference between the two? (imho) A lust for results would seem to be the easyest predominate tendancy that might be utilised to provide defination

    so whats the prive of tea in china? ::He laughs::


    Namaste,
    Rasputen

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