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  Allies of Thelema?
General Thelema Posted by Xnoubis on Friday November 17, @05:23PM
from the al's-pals dept.

It occurred to me that it would be interesting to ask, who do you feel are the natural allies of Thelema?

Obviously, there can't be any hard and fast answers about such a thing, and no doubt everyone has different opinions on the subject. But by "allies," I mean those groups or movements that share the goals of Thelema more than they oppose them. Clearly, for instance, the Southern Baptist Church is not one of our allies. Is there a clear-cut example of a group that is an ally? Um . . .

Back when it was more of a viable phenomenon, I would have said: Thee Temple of Psychick Youth. And that in turn brings to mind Chaos Magick, even though there seem to be frequent outbreaks of hostility between it and Thelema. And then there are all the borderline cases, about which no one will agree. The New Age? Other minority religions like the Hare Krishnas? The Theosophists? The Gurdjieffians? Regular Masons? UFO enthusiasts? Ravers?

Some might object that it's premature to speak of Thelema's allies when Thelemites can't even get along with one another. On the other hand, maybe thinking about our relationship to the world-at-large might help us to get our differences into perspective.




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    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday November 17, @06:32PM
    Of course Thelemites love strange bedfellows :-)
    But seriously, allies are often a conditional thing. We might find the ACLU an ally in a fight against religious persecution, but not in an attempt to "establish the Law of Thelema". Scientology might support an O.T.O. effort to protect the copyrights on its secret rituals, but they're hardly likely to endorse our view of the Jack Parsons/L. Ron Hubbard interaction. J. Gordon Melton might be considered an ally for taking us seriously as a spiritual/intellectual movement, but he himself is a Christian believer. I think we should take our allies as we find and need them, pragmatically and not romantically.

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Craig on Friday November 17, @10:26PM
      boy does this open up a can or proverbial wyrms;
      ok, right off i must take to task your(Mordecai)
      closing remark " I think we should take our allies
      as we find and need them, pragmatically and not
      romatically"...hmmm, and in context with the whole
      idea of establishing the Law of Thelema, as it were; now i have to say that Xnoubis has an uncanny way of hitting on interesting permutations
      of subjects to pervoke discussion, however i does
      not seem to me ( this "inverted Crowleyan") or is
      it renagade surrealist Thelemite, a so and at any and all rates it would be my deconstructed view
      that the whole idea that the Law of Thelema is even ment TO BE ESTABLISHED; since as we move into
      the paradigim shift of the next decade or so and as we wade deeper into the very substance(subcontext) of the very nature of Thelema to define itself, it is my feeling that
      as everything is as it was; therefore everything will be as it shall be, which is that we can't even begin to know what psychic transformations
      will manifest as the karma of everything that has happened on this planet begins it's quantum melt down, speeding up to match the future as the energy of the future slows up to meet itself
      at the end of time...just taking into consideration the kind of clausterphobic atmosphere of the old Aeon and the new Aeon rushing to headlong to cancel out its emotional debts when "for I have crushed an universe & nought remains" taking into perspective this
      event non-event this Anti-Armageddon that is sending down its scarlet shadows to our little scenes as we speak; it is hardly relevant to
      appose pragmatic to romantic, or wonder who could be natural allies unless we can begin to turn the whole Thelemic attractor inside out, as long as we cling to the whole outer order hierarchical facade
      as long as we pretend to imagine that we understand what the Crowley phenomonon is all about as according to some microcosmic corporation
      of official anarchists, then i would say we got pragmatic up our yin and romatic up our yang, and
      it really dosen't matter who might be our allies
      or our spys...the worst scenario i can invisage
      would be to see Thelema become another version
      of black and white as apposed to one another
      and to become tha dragon it hopes to defeat...

      ..so for you pragmatic souls out there...if we can't agree amoungst ourselves and the only ones whom agree on anything are the psychopomps on the
      top of the OTO pyrimid...then and we know
      why and what they agree on don't we???

      9393939393939393939393939393939393939393


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by prima on Saturday November 18, @08:52AM
    The type of man that resembles a clear alliance to Thelemic philosophy:

    One who laughs at projects to feed the starving by donation of their own money. Clearly the early man had no problem finding their own food, following the law of survival, and most importantly the will of self. Nothing could spoil a race more than to sit around anhungered like the lazy scabs they are, just waiting for someone to spoonfeed them.

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Xnoubis on Monday November 20, @01:17PM
      It's not clear to me whether you actually espouse this brutal philosophy, or whether you just believe that this is what Thelema represents, and are being dismissive of it. I'll assume the former, and take your comments at face value.

      You've essentially described the Social Darwinist interpretation of Thelema. It is certainly possible to read the Book of the Law, and much of Crowley's writing, as supporting this view. But it is certainly not the only interpretation, and is only rarely encountered in my Thelemic neighborhood.

      If we want to look first at refutations to this view within the Crowley corpus, there is this passage from Liber Aleph, Chapter 33: "thou must by Law assure to every Man a Means of satisfying his bodily and his mental Needs, leaving him free to develop any Superstructure in accordance with his Will." Feeding the hungry would in this sense be a fulfillment of the Law of Thelema, not a contradiction of it.

      Beyond Crowley, I'm led to understand that there is a growing scientific consensus that cooperation is an important factor in evolution. Letting the physically weak perish will tend to weed out the physically weak from the gene pool, true. And yet, some weak individuals may possess other strengths that could be of use to the survival of the species. By helping one another we encourage diversity, which is not just a liberal sentiment, but an evolutionary strategy that can be of great value in the event of a sudden change in the environment.

      There is a place for the trampling of the weak: within one's own psyche. If we have the intention to attain, then those aspects within ourselves that are obstructions to realization are to be slain without mercy.

      But if we apply that rationale on a social level, we become fascists, and thereby abandon both the scientific understanding of evolution, and our humanity.


      • Re: Allies of Thelema?
        by prima on Tuesday November 28, @11:08AM
        You also have an extensive popular commentary on Liber Legis, which stresses anti-vaccination: weeding out the weak. Thelema is evolution, and that means trampling down the weak and the wretched. There is to my knowledge no compromising in this area. Let them perish who are locked in Daath, is one-half the goal.


        • Re: Allies of Thelema?
          by Mordecai Shapiro on Tuesday November 28, @07:56PM
          >Thelema is evolution, and that means trampling down the weak and the wretched.

          This is an outdated, rather 19th-century, view of the processes of evolution. The modern "Neo-Darwinian" understanding holds that cooperation within a species and even symbiotic relationships between species are very important mechanisms in evolution. As for the "popular commentary" on Liber L, I think Michael has quite rightly pointed to a perfectly reasonable understanding of "Stamp down the wretched and the weak" as applying not to the other individuals in society, but to the faults and frailties of oneself. There are plenty of clues in the Book that indicate that its meaning is not necessarily the obvious, literal one, but perhaps the subtle, metaphorical one (i.e., "for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss" implies the likelihood that some readers will misunderstand).


          • Re: Allies of Thelema?
            by Nexist on Thursday November 30, @01:22PM
            Wow, I had just answered this question on the Thelema list. Regarding the Wretched and the Weak and anti-compassion...

            [start quote]
            While I agree somewhat, one should also bear in mind that we are told to "veil not your vices in virtuous words: these vices are my service; ye do well, & I will reward you here and hereafter." (AL I:52)

            Compassion is not unThelemic. The Xtian corruption of compassion into a tool for oppression -- i.e. Pity -- is too be despised, for "Every man and every woman is a star". There is no "wretched & the weak" except one purposefully makes oneself such (e.g. those perpetual "victims" who seek out new situations for victimization so as to confirm their adopted identity).

            As for "Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler." & qualify with "There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." in that there is no "Fallen" except as a self perpetuating myth.

            Rather than a destructive divisive scenario (which I admit is the common interp -- or at least most vocalized), what is called for is the realization that we are not "victims" or "wretched" or "fallen" (from grace?) but rather we are individual and unique. Our divine natures render such antiquated notions irrelelvent.
            [/end quote]


        • Re: Allies of Thelema?
          by Zarathustra on Wednesday November 29, @11:42AM
          Here we are, folks, at the Thelemic Hero Contest for the year! Ten-year champion Arnold Schwarzenneger is still looking formidable, but perennial second-placer Bruce Willis is rumored to be a little hotter this time around. Bandishing his "engines of war" will be Stormin' Noroman Scwatzkopft, along with Ollie North, who is rumored to be bringing along a cache of live harbor mines from Managua Bay. Charleton Heston, in an upstart bid, vowed to out-gun any competitors, while former champion Clint Eastwood is trying to make a comeback with the new slogan, "Make My Millenium." Another "wild card" contender, Mike Tyson, lisped out a string of bold challenges. Unfortunately, Jackie Chan was disqualified by the judges earlier this year for "conduct indicating he did not take the event seriously."

          As usual, the contenders will have a pool of women, children, old men, lepers, anemics, consumptives, paralytics, multiple amputees, and other easy targets to grind to a pulp before the main contest takes place. It's going to be a great and brutal contest, folks, and I can assure you, true to the letter of the Law, that the WEAK SHALL BE TRAMPLED. Stay tuned!!!


          • Re: Allies of Thelema?
            by Nexist on Thursday November 30, @01:25PM
            Hey, I like Arnold, Bruce & Clint. Heston is also great when he is supporting my right to a gun.

            The rest just reminds me of Death Race 2000.


            • Re: Allies of Thelema?
              by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday December 01, @12:11AM
              Yeah! David Carradine and a pre-pumped Sylvester Stallone.


    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Zarathustra on Wednesday November 29, @11:44AM
      >>Clearly the early man had no problem finding their own food, following the law of survival<<

      This is somewhat problematic in an industrial society, with arable land at a distance from most population centers, and owned by megafarm conglomerates.


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Rafael Kitover on Saturday November 18, @01:22PM
    According to:


    http://www.otohq.org/oto/duty.html

    Which is one of my favorite documents,


    1. Unite yourself passionately with every other form of consciousness,
    Thus destroying the sense of separateness from the
    Whole, and creating a new baseline in the Universe
    from which to measure it.

    "Love is the law, love under will." AL I:57


    The idea of having allies means, by definition, that we are supposed to have enemies. If Love is the Law, how can we have enemies?

    Are those who reject love as the law enemies? Clearly not, because that violates above law.

    So Thelemites might have more in common with other magickal societies/new age movements than Southern Baptists, but there is common ground to be shared on all plateus.

    In other words, everyone is an ally.

    It is and will be hard. Our culture revels in the ugliness of pain, apathy and hopelessness quite a bit, and that means us as well, since we are part of our environment.

    In the more practical matters, as Mordecai already said. Though perhaps they are more dalliance than alliance?

    And a joyous Saturnday to y'all!

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Xnoubis on Monday November 20, @01:39PM
      > The idea of having allies means, by definition,
      > that we are supposed to have enemies.

      No. The most you can say in this regard is that having allies means that we have those who are not allies. Someone who is not my ally is not necessarily my enemy.

      > If Love is the Law, how can we have enemies?

      I agree. But just because all men/women are brothers/sisters doesn't mean that we can't have particular people who are our friends.

      In a deep sense, yes, everyone is an ally, and you're right to point out the importance of this. But in a more mundane sense, Thelema implies certain goals, and we can work together with those who share these goals. As Mordecai says, we may agree with some groups about some things and not others, and those agreements can easily change over time. But it's worthwhile, I think, to consider those with whom we might network, in order to effect change on a larger scale.

      This is in contrast to the approach of keeping strictly to ourselves since we're the only ones who have the Right Idea(tm).


    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Zarathustra on Wednesday November 29, @11:48AM
      I agree, and thanks for making the comment. I think it is very important to try as hard as you can to find truth in your "enemies" ideas.

      "Below the abyss," however, in the realm of duality, there may be a need to find friendly collaborators.


    Re: viable phenomenon
    by ANATHEMA on Sunday November 19, @12:19AM
    The phenomenon is still alive and well:


    Thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Rev. Michael S. Margolin on Monday November 20, @07:21AM
    93,
    This is an interesting subject.
    Being the leader/founder of my own religion I have found it best to refuse some affiliation offers. Some groups had ethics I could not support. This most likely is true for O.T.O. as well. The O.T.O. most likely has to be very careful who they align themselves with for their own safety. As far as Sinagogue of Satan we love respect and support O.T.O. and its Caliph.
    But we do not ask the same in return.
    We understand our existance is not easy for most people to accept, so we don't expect or ask for it. We merely endure.
    In ending for the record.
    O.T.O. has never formaly or informaly backed, supported or acknowledged SoS.
    Nor will we ever seek it.
    But we do Love and Support you.
    93/93/93
    Im Satans Name
    Rev. Michael S. Margolin

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Mordecai Shapiro on Monday November 20, @10:55AM
      >O.T.O. has never formaly or informaly backed, supported or acknowledged SoS.

      Though this is quite true, there are individual members of the O.T.O. who support SoS, even to the extent of also being members of SoS. There is absolutely no conflict inherent in such dual membership.


      • Re: Have I told you I love you lately?
        by Rev. Michael S. Margolin on Tuesday November 21, @03:04PM
        93,
        If not, I love you.
        Thank you for your post.
        93/93/93
        Daphy Baphy 666


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Craig on Monday November 20, @03:56PM
    please excuse my blantant romanticisem, its just that when Thelemites start sounding dogmatic and
    and self important and the OHO is a yuppie publisher i really have to wonder...since i spent time around Grady and i see that legacy still extending itself in the form it has taken, and well, i just am not a comformist...sorry, i am a romantic that belives that "Do what thow wilt" implys something greater then the group think and the sort of group dynamic that the OTO implys, which of course a person like my self having attempted to put my energy into OTO( Gnostic church) and having seen the kind of power trips that people get on in the name of Thelema...well it just makes me wonder..
    when Thelema becomes corporate, then a kind of corporate mentality reigns supream no matter what the trappings, it still comes down to people having that corporate upward mobility, that mirrors society at large, sorry i did not get a university degree, sorry i am not an important somebody in society, that never was my goal, i don't give a hoot's ass about a yuppie corporate OTO, now i will get out of your hair...have a nice whatever...im sure the Emerald throne will make you all very prosperious...93 always

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Zarathustra on Wednesday November 29, @11:18AM
      It is true that we are stars (Hadit). But we are also in the company of stars (Nuit). (Not to mention galaxies, interstellar dust, the Virgo Supercluster, dark matter, the hissing and popping soup of virtual particles, etc.)

      We are also biological organisms, which are usually found in groups, humans not excepted. Individuals could not really exist on their own; they live in webs of interdependency. Reflect on your life and you will see this is obvious.

      Isn't the individual ego kind of a naive construct?


    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Nexist on Thursday November 30, @01:29PM
      LOL! I just love you romantic rugged idealist and your martyred posturings on the sidelines ;)

      If this is the case then hats off. Unfortunately, too many people use the imagery to justify their inability to pass kindergarten (i.e. Plays well with others).


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Nick Weishampel on Tuesday December 05, @08:38PM
    Ravers as allies of Thelema, that's an interesting notion.

    As a thelemite who has grown up in the rave sceen, at first it made me laugh to myself then I gave it a second thought. The often laughed at, by ravers themselves, slogan of the sceen is PLUR: Peace, Love, Unity and Respect. I have been to raves that truly seem to embody these things. A rave at its best can be a great example of a large group of people living for the moment in a positive way. On the other hand, I hardly go to raves anymore. The reason being that it seems that they are overrun by highschool kids trying to see how many different drugs they can put into their system at once. I've seen more ambulances leave large raves then I can count and even a few people die. It seems more about the drugs then it does the music, which I still love. It's not that I'm against drugs, its that I'm against them being used stupidly, i.e. 16 year olds doing acid, smoking weed, taking extacy and snorting ketemine all in one night. You don't realy see that type of thing in any other youth social group. I think that MDMA and Marijuana can be used in combination with electronic music to reach wonderful trance states. I also think that MDMA in combination with tantric sex deserves serious research. Anyway, I think that there may be many individuals within the sceen that could be allies with thelimites but as a whole I think that the rave sceen is too immature for that. Most people who make the music are in their late 20s and early 30's and don't even attend raves, due to the fact that the average age at one is 18, but they love the music. I didn't know what kind of point I was going to try to make when I started writing this, I just saw raver and Thelemite in the same paragraph and wanted to share my thoughts.

    • Re: Allies of Thelema?
      by Xnoubis on Wednesday December 06, @02:33PM
      In the early '90s, at the start of the Ambient scene, Richard Sun and the Ambient Temple of I-Mage-I-Nation were doing some interesting work integrating Thelema and the rave scene, sometimes involving Bay Area Thelemites, myself included.

      There was also the strong Thelemic influence in Psychic TV, particularly in their Acid House days.

      Of course, this was ages ago in rave terms, and I have no idea whether there's any connection any more. But there should be.


    Re: Allies of Thelema?
    by Kalyx on Thursday January 04, @02:39PM
    Funny, I was just thinking of that...

    I've noticed a lot of parallels in many Native American nations' beliefs and culture that to me suggest that we have a good base for alliance with them. The ones I'm personally familiar with acknowledge a dual rule of freedom to live according to personal vision and responsibility for ones actions that is very familiar to Thelemites. Many allow for both upholding taboos and tradition as well as the need for taboo-breaking (i.e. the Heyoka path in Lakota religion) and generally speaking, are oriented to a balanced perspective not unlike our "Middle Pillar." Joy, the recognition of beauty, courage, endurance, tolerance, high standards in terms of magickal ability, living according to natural law, the importance of the spiritual...all qualities that both sides place a high value on and contribute to a good foundation for understanding between the two.

    This isn't to romanticize the problems tribes are facing, btw...in being a part of Native American student associations and talking with members of various tribes, I'm well aware that many are struggling with internal conflicts and issues that have made the ideal almost unreachable [...but that sounds familiar, too, eh?] Also, there's a huge cultural gap that would have to be bridged before real dialogue and mutual respect could occur, or before there could be any kind of widespread alliance between Thelemites and Native Americans in general. We're also talking about two different kinds of cultures...one creed based and one racially based. However, there are enough people who have demonstrated the desire to focus on the commonalities and have realized that we share a lot of the same opposition to start working towards a better understanding what we can offer each other.

    For me personally, I think part of the "establishing of the Law of Thelema" is recognizing where it already exists and supporting the efforts of those who are affirming their "Liber Oz" rights. This act by nature creates Thelema-friendly allies.

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