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  Order of Thelemic Knights
Community Posted by Grand Seneschal on March 14, 2001 @ 10:06 PM
from the chivalry-ain't-dead dept.

The Order of Thelemic Knights is an organization of Thelemites who hold two things as imperative to the promulgation and acceptance of the Law of Thelema. These two things are Nobility of Character and Service. We feel that these ideals are best epitomized within the "Warrior Traditions" that can be found in nearly every culture around the globe. By researching these traditions and recasting them within the Thelemic paradigm, we mean to re-instill the realization of Humanity's inherent nobility and cast Thelema as a valid philosophy for the basis of a strong society.


The Order of Thelemic Knights was created to fill a perceived need within the global society. All too often groups focus exclusively upon their own wants and needs. This can -- if unchecked -- lead to an imbalance. To counter the pull towards isolationism (or even selfishness), the OTK was created to perform charitable acts, to give to the greater Human society, as well as to assist Thelemites. Upon hearing this, some may think of (if I may be permitted to indulge in a minor bit of AL referencing) "Compassion is the vice of kings" (AL II:21) but fail to take into account, "veil not your vices in virtuous words: these vices are my service; ye do well, & I will reward you here and hereafter" (AL II:52). Rest assured that we have all consulted with our HGA's and found that our actions are in no way contradictory to the charges in The Book of the Law, nor of Thelema in general. We encourage any and all who affiliate with the Order to do a similar search of nature and soul prior to joining

The OTK teaches nobility and honor. The principles are summed up in a document entitled "The Eleven Thelemic Virtues". These virtues are Valor, Nobility, Discernment, Pride, Compassion, Fidelity, Passion, Strength, Discipline, Self-Reliance and Hospitality. The similarity between these and the Nine Noble Virtues should be readily apparent to any familiar with Northern Paganism. Each one of these virtues was selected for its applicability in strengthening the individual, and the individual's society. To achieve this we examine societies of the past, see how they acted towards these virtues, and emulate their example, as may be applicable within the confines of modern perspectives and a Thelemic world view. Also, the Order teaches inner and outer strength through service and charity.

Membership in the Order of Thelemic Knights is available to all men or women of full age who agree with the principles and philosophy espoused by the Order. Further, the aspirant must find a Knight to sponsor him or her as a Squire within the Order of Thelemic Knights. There is also a financial obligation, as well as a commitment to study and practice the curriculum of the Order.

For those who do not wish to formally commit themselves to the Order, there are a myriad of other methods available to show one's support for the Order of Thelemic Knights. This is detailed on our web site.

Order of Thelemic Knights,
Grand Triumvirate



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    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Javelin on Thursday March 15, @05:05AM
    Knights here & there, Grand this and that. What is the point? Nobility and honour are good enough without the roleplaying. But maybe it is me, that I tend to see the silly side of things overmuch. But altho' I am a bit of a romantic I can't picture this Thelemic Knighthood at all. (Okay I know, just visit the website: ah I see, it's just a nice metaphore! And still I think D&D!)

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Grand Seneschal on Thursday March 15, @09:07AM
      The point is inspiration. Titles can fulfill two purposes, Ego Boost and Inspiration. While the Ego is invovled with both, the first is imbalanced, the other balanced. The first says "I deserve this", the second "I want to deserve this". The second pushes one to strive for excellence, a factor that plays an important part in the conception of the OTK.

      As for "Grand", that came about from a need to differentiate between the International & local body heads. It's a lot more straitforward & unadorned than some groups titles.


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Jean Fillioux on Thursday March 15, @08:53AM
    Greetings,

    Might I say that this certain structure of Thelemic Knights brings to memory a number of similar movements of the past. It is an interesting concept, one that I feel works quite well, in a natural warrior tradition. And noticing just today of the revolutionaries of the Albanians in Macedonia how they are fighting to change their world (this concept seems all the more self-evident). I'd be interested in learning if the Order of Thelemic Knights are involved in any political actions, besides the clearly mentioned charitable works?

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Javelin on Thursday March 15, @09:01AM
      Hmm, brings to mind the books about spiritual war issued by Shambala. Kind of tantric valour, buddhist style. But ofcourse being so new (postmodern, lol) it would be prudent not to enter too deep in the mire of politics.


    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Grand Seneschal on Thursday March 15, @09:16AM
      Individual Thelemites within the Order are entitled to have their own viewpoints on local and world politics. I believe that, on a personal level, there is a division of opinion on the situation on the Balkans.

      The OTK works by transforming the individual so as to enable them to make follow the path of "right action" for themselves and their world. We hope that by facilitating the individual, the individual will then facillitate the world.

      I suppose this is a roundabout way of saying that "No, we are not involved in any specific political actions as a group, only as individuals".


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Jean Fillioux on Thursday March 15, @11:28AM
        While I agree with you on the points raised, the reason why I asked is that I find eventually along the path that a solidifying of group interests are imminent. But furthermore, they are crucial to a functioning society, and therefore several existing political protocals are greatly conflicting to the point of impeding individual and group development. (Just something to think about.) Though I do admire what direction this Order seems to be taking.

        --thanks!


    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Thelemick Knight on Thursday March 15, @09:37AM
      The Order is a nonprofit organization, and is therefore prohibited from engaging in politics. Its main objective is to obtain the spiritual through the martial.


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Jean Fillioux on Thursday March 15, @11:46AM
        Why should "non-profit" prohibit political interests? (The very thought brings to mind a picture of anti-democratic scenarios.)

        I agree that it is much easier to be neutral in this respect, and studying the past emphatically on similar concepts as the martial-spiritual it would even be resepected to "stay out" of political concerns, at least in this modern day. But in any age so-ever there is a strong governing question--or let us just say "a way that our people are treated"--that will remain as a very strong bonding agent.

        That said, I feel that the presentation of this Order tries to stress a point of politics in the manifesto and other writings found on your website, and maybe this is just me! but, the older I become the more I find, if only in my personal relationship with truth, that charitable is more synonomous with a force that makes dishonest businessmen comply to a diligent standard, or any one other social aspect raised somehow to that point.

        And in the end, there is of course, "a few" that needs to broaden its horizon.

        (...Handing the laurel off...)


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Tim Maroney on Thursday March 15, @12:15PM
          In the USA, non-profits are allowed to be politically active, but not to endorse particular political candidates in elections.

          Tim


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Tim Maroney on Thursday March 15, @10:34AM
    http://www.thelemicknights.org/faqs.html (View Source)

    http://www.bcpl.net/~jketler/grayfriar.html

    http://www.geocities.com/celi_de/index.html

    A more difficult question is posed at:

    http://www.thelemicknights.org/gp.html (View Source)

    I would tend to think that this "Solis" is probably a different fellow from the OTO member who has long posted under that name, but perhaps not.

    Tim

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Tim Maroney on Thursday March 15, @10:40AM
      My bad, forgot to do this...

      Tim




      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Thelemick Knight on Thursday March 15, @10:57AM
        Good bit of detective work, Tim. Not quite sure what your point is.

        Thelemic Knight


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Tim Maroney on Thursday March 15, @11:03AM
          No point, just information.

          The group doesn't look like it's quite for me but there's a lot of good there. Sacco and Vanzetti as saints, with MLK and Malcolm X -- great stuff!

          It's also pretty well written throughout, with just a few proofreading glitches. That sets it apart from a lot of the new mush-mouthed Thelemic organizations, who will remain nameless here to protect the guilty.

          Tim


          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
            by Thelemick Knight on Thursday March 15, @11:08AM
            Well, if i ever need to find something about some group, I want you on my side. ;)

            We really hope to do some good. We are not looking for glory, or to become yet another reactionary group. (We have nothing to be reactionary against, actually). It is a sincere effort.

            It is good to see you again. I had lost track of you for a spell.

            Pax


            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
              by Tim Maroney on Friday March 16, @09:08AM
              Good to see you too -- whoever you are! I wish you good fortune in this endeavor.

              Tim


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Jean Fillioux on Thursday March 15, @01:23PM
          [In the Shells.]


          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
            by Tim Maroney on Thursday March 15, @03:29PM
            Thanks, that's really helpful feedback.


    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Jean Fillioux on Thursday March 15, @01:15PM
      Why did you post a link to Celi Di (as if anyone on God's green earth has ever heard of them)? What do they have to do with OTK?

      "http://www.bcpl.net/~jketler/grayfriar.html"


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Tim Maroney on Friday March 16, @09:11AM
        K?d?o followed the direction on the first line of the message saw the linked person's name on the source of the page I cited, listed as author. That author listing was changed to Solis after you posted your message, though. This raises the possibility that this was a copy-and-paste error in creating the page. That is, the true author may have started from someone else's sources and forgotten to change the attribution.

        I can't say and I won't speculate, except to note the possibly relevant fact that the linked person uses a different HTML editor (FrontPage) on his own pages and no author listing of that type appears there.

        Tim


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Thelemick Knight on Friday March 16, @10:52AM
        The answer is simple, and not so sinister as you make it appear. A quick glance at both of our sites will put away any suspicion that content was taken from some one else.


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Tim Maroney on Friday March 16, @11:04AM
          Sinister? Editing HTML often starts with someone else's stuff and strips away what one doesn't want. Certainly this was meant as no kind of accusation.

          Tim


          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
            by Jean Fillioux on Friday March 16, @11:47AM
            [In the Shells.]


            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
              by Xnoubis on Friday March 16, @11:54AM
              But keep trying.


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Xnoubis on Thursday March 15, @01:29PM
    I'd be interested in knowing more about the sorts of charitable works undertaken by the OTK, to the extent you can share that kind of info.

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Thelemick Knight on Thursday March 15, @01:48PM
      Excellent question. I am glad you asked, since this is the nature of the Order.

      Most of the charity work that we hope to engage in occurs on a local preceptory level. We have preceptories forming in British Columbia, Northern California, and Kentucky. The work we have done in Portland is to provide assistance to Thelemites
      experiencing substance abuse problems by providing them counseling, or connecting them with doctors and organizations who are specialists in the field. Last year we organized a "hair drive" to collect human hair so that children receiving chemotherapy could get hair pieces without incurring anymore expenses.

      Future work largely depends on our evolution and growth. We hope that we will be involved in securing temporary safe houses for battered women, local Thelemic community disaster awareness and preparedness, providing food and supplies to
      Thelemites living in war torn countries, as well as other, more agressive undertakings that we are not yet prepared to disccuss at the moment.

      In short, the extent to whcih we can serve will depend on need, and commitment from our members and supporters.


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Rafael Kitover on Friday March 16, @06:16PM
    What exactly is the purpose of making this society invitation only? You will have a hard enough time finding people as it is.

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Thelemic Knights on Saturday March 17, @11:51PM
      This is an excellent question, and you are right: this will make it more difficult to attract members.

      First we wish to make something clear, anyone can help us with our activities, our service to the world. One simply needs to ask what they can do.

      Membership in the Order is a matter altogether different. Our emphasis isn't in numbers, but on people who are sincerely committed to the principles of the Order. The only way we can do that is if the person is sponsored by one of our Knights. If a person is interested in joining the Order of Thelemic Knights, that person merely need to find a Knight and convince them of their worthiness to serve, adhere to the Order's code, and be an embassador for Thelema.


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Paradoxos Alpha on Monday March 19, @08:56AM
    93

    The OTK faq states incorrectly:
    "We are a Chivalric Order. The first to embrace Thelema."

    Even the most cursory perusal of OTO constitutional papers cannot fail to include notice of the chivalric component in the Lover Grade Degrees. One might object that the chivalric basis for OTO is Masonic faux-knighthood, but I fail to see a more profound legitimacy in OTK.

    This observation is not meant as an objection to OTK or its program, which seems worthy. The claim of priority is unfounded, though.

    93 93/93

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Thelemick Knight on Tuesday March 20, @12:40PM
      There is no criticism taken. In fact, I do see your point.

      We mean Chivalry in its traditional use. Also, that is the MAIN focus in terms of personal growth. Like true Knighthoods, we work to extablish our Law by setting an example though works and charity. We interact with outsiders, and much of our work benefits non-Thelemites as well as adherents. That is how we intend on promulgating the Law of Thelema.

      I suppose it is possible to be Chivalric to ones self, or ones kin exclusively, but even the Masons realized that in order to adopt the name "Knighthood" one must be involved in work which benfits others as well.

      We feel that the FAQ is accurate.


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Mordecai Shapiro on Thursday March 22, @08:47AM
        >We feel that the FAQ is accurate.

        I would think that a FAQ should be about thoughts, not feelings. The problem with claims of "priority" is that they assume a breadth of knowledge which is usually impossible to assure. For instance, the "Knights of Baphomet", an erstwhile organization within the O.T.O., was a bastion of the promotion of Thelemic chivalry as far back as the early 80's. How were you to know this? Perhaps there is no way you could have; the point is that you can't know enough to make such a blanket claim of priority. On the larger issue, I wonder why feudalistic anachronisms are so appealing to many supposedly modern Thelemites.


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Thelemic Knight on Thursday March 22, @11:14PM
          Si Vales, Valeo

          The Knights of Baphomet, as started by Rusty Sporer was a fine attempt at Thelemic Chivalry. However, the Knights of Baphomet were disbanded and are no longer recognized by Grand Lodge as a functioning body. Furthermore, the Knights of Baphomet never extended their chivalric work outside of the OTO.

          But as you say, we could not possibly know everything, therefore I will leave it to you to list the work that the Knights of Baphomet did as an organization to benefit society as a whole.

          The difference is in how we are defining "Chivalry." As I mentioned earlier: people outside of our Order, even people who do not adhere to the Thelemic paradigm, benefit from our existence. We believe we are the first Thelemick organization to extend our services outside of our own sect.

          If you can prove that another Thelemic Organization has been doing this kind of work, or bringing the light of Thelema to everyone without organizational or sectarian bias, please do let us know. We would rejoice in this knowledge, and would gladly change the FAQ to reflect the Truth. The last thing we want to do is make claims which are untrue.

          As to feudalistic anachronisms: Yes, I agree. This is very unfortunate. But the Order of Thelemick Knights is not a true feudalist anachronistic organization. We have borrowed the romantic imagery as a source of inspiration, and stripped out any and all negatives of the feudal system, (e.g serfdom). Many groups cling to these ideas only where it serves to inflate their own self-importance, and disregard those virtues that made the original institutions so valuable to begin with. OTK does not throw out the baby with the bath water.

          On a personal level, (and I am only speaking for for myself) OTK resonates with my military nature. I value discipline. This model helps to create an atmosphere where people like myself can thrive, find direction, focus and grow out of the experience. There are other, magical reasons, of which I am sure you are awarem and in this case, we are in good company.

          Pax Profundus,
          Thelemic Knight


          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
            by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday March 23, @12:17AM
            >We believe we are the first Thelemick organization to extend our services outside of our
            >own sect. If you can prove that another Thelemic Organization has been doing this kind of work,

            Your belief is predicated on a lack of knowledge. As for proof, most would agree that the burden of proof falls upon the one making the claim. I will, however, give an example. There is an O.T.O. body in Texas which met (may still meet as far as I know) regularly to clean up a two mile segment of Texas highway. They even got one of those "This highway cleaned up by O.T.O." signs. I saw a photo of it.

            >or bringing the light of Thelema to everyone without organizational or sectarian bias, please
            >do let us know.

            This is the sort of highly subjective judgment which I try not to make.

            >We would rejoice in this knowledge, and would gladly change the FAQ to reflect the Truth. The
            >last thing we want to do is make claims which are untrue.

            One good way to avoid making claims which are untrue is to avoid making any unnecessary claims. What difference does it make if you have priority or not? Either way, it's what you do that defines your organization. Your goals are commendable. I hope you achieve them.


            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
              by Thelemick Knight on Friday March 23, @10:37AM
              Me: We believe we are the first Thelemick organization to extend our services outside of our own sect. If you can prove that another Thelemic Organization has been doing this kind of work...

              You: Your belief is predicated on a lack of knowledge. As for proof, most would agree that the burden of proof falls upon the one making the claim.

              Not exactly. We make the claim in eanest. You challenge the claim, which is your right to do so. I will continue defending the case until you bring up proof to the contrary.

              But Brother, let's not split hairs.

              You: I will, however, give an example. There is an O.T.O. body in Texas which met (may still meet as far as I know) regularly to clean up a two mile segment of Texas highway. They even got one of those "This highway cleaned up by O.T.O." signs. I saw a photo of it.

              Indeed. I know of an OTO body in Portland that did the same thing. But the goal was not to serve, but to get a sign in the name of the local body. While I am a big supporter of environmental causes, I don't see these kinds of things as charitable acts.

              Feeding the homeless, addressing drug abuse issues, sex education: those are the social issues which need to be addressed froma Thelemic angle. These are monumental problems, and rising up to meet the challange makes it "knightly."

              You: One good way to avoid making claims which are untrue is to avoid making any unnecessary claims. What difference does it make if you have priority or not?

              How is stating a simple fact unnecessary? It is important to point out your differences with other, already existing organizations so as to avoid confusion. Everyone has their own niche. This one is ours.

              You: Either way, it's what you do that defines your organization.

              I couldn't agree with you more. We do what we can with the limited number of folks that are drawn to this work, but we are increasing in numbers, having members in the US and abroad.

              You: Your goals are commendable. I hope you achieve them.

              Thank you most sincerely, Brother. We hope so as well.

              Sincerely yours,
              Thelemic Knight


              • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday March 23, @04:58PM
                >Indeed. I know of an OTO body in Portland that did the same thing. But the goal was not to serve,
                >but to get a sign in the name of the local body.

                Couldn't they have more than one goal? Did they explicitly say they weren't doing it to serve, or is that yet another assumption on your part? Either way, you can't also be claiming to know the minds of the Texas group as well, can you?

                >While I am a big supporter of environmental causes, I don't see these kinds of things as
                >charitable acts.

                You are free to define charity as you please. I will just point out that the federal government includes environmental causes among those qualifying as charities, so they (and I believe most Americans) don't agree with you.

                >How is stating a simple fact unnecessary? It is important to point out your differences with
                >other, already existing organizations so as to avoid confusion.

                As previously pointed out, the claim of priority is not a simple fact. It is simply a contention, a contention which as far as I can see is completely unnecessary to carrying out your stated intentions. You can distinguish yourself from other groups by your name, logo, mission, etc. A claim of priority is not required to be unique.

                >Everyone has their own niche. This one is ours.

                A possible corollary to this is, "We were here first, buzz off!" Of course, if your intentions are as honorable as they appear you won't mind other Thelemic groups doing charitable works, but frankly the desire to be recognized as "first" seems more to do with misplaced ego than charity. Though I hope much good comes of your initiative I must also admit to a certain apprehension that, if successful, it might just end up as a Thelemic form of the Salvation Army!


                • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                  by Thelemic Knight on Friday March 23, @06:56PM
                  Me: Indeed. I know of an OTO body in Portland that did the same thing. But the goal was not to serve, but to get a sign in the name of the local body.

                  You: Couldn't they have more than one goal? Did they explicitly say they weren't doing it to serve, or is that yet another assumption on your part?

                  It would be easier to come to that conclusion had the sign not been removed because the area was not being kept clean.

                  You: You are free to define charity as you please. I will just point out that the federal government includes environmental causes among those qualifying as charities, so they (and I believe most Americans) don't agree with you.

                  There are many causes one could take on which would benefit society. I am glad to hear that OTO is officially involved in environmental activism, and wish it much success in its goals.

                  Me: How is stating a simple fact unnecessary? It is important to point out your differences with other, already existing organizations so as to avoid confusion.

                  You: As previously pointed out, the claim of priority is not a simple fact. It is simply a
                  contention, a contention which as far as I can see is completely unnecessary to carrying out your stated intentions.


                  There is an old saying about living in a glass house. I know that OTO has made a few unnecessary contentions as well, but you don't appear to be critical of those.

                  Or, to put it another way: what is it about us that you dislike so much? That we are calling it "Thelemic?"

                  You: You can distinguish yourself from other groups by your name, logo, mission, etc. A claim of priority is not required to be unique.

                  If you want to make claims about OTO being environmentally and socially involved because some of its members happen to be, that is fine. But I wont believe you, nor will anyone else.

                  Me: Everyone has their own niche. This one is ours.

                  You: A possible corollary to this is, "We were here first, buzz off!"

                  I sincerely wish that more Thelemic organizations would get actively involved in social issues. Think of the good that an organization like the OTO could do if it organized all of the members it has?

                  You: Of course, if your intentions are as honorable as they appear you won't mind other Thelemic groups doing charitable works, but frankly the desire to be recognized as "first" seems more to do with misplaced ego than charity.

                  Really? If OTO was making that claim, and I was an OTO Brother, would you be arguing this point with me? Here, in this forum?

                  You: Though I hope much good comes of your initiative I must also admit to a certain apprehension that, if successful, it might just end up as a Thelemic form of the Salvation Army!

                  I seriously doubt that there is any danger in that. It is hard to imagine that any group of Thelemites might have the profound effect on the physical that the Salvation Army has.

                  Pax Profundus,
                  Thelemic Knight


            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
              by Grand Seneschal on Friday March 23, @05:31PM
              There is an O.T.O. body in Texas which met (may still meet as far as I know) regularly to clean up a two mile segment of Texas highway

              While this is commendable, even the way you present it makes it apparent that this is the exception, rather than the rule. We hope, through direct action & via our example, to make such activity the norm.


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Grand Seneschal on Friday March 23, @04:37PM
          For instance, the "Knights of Baphomet", an erstwhile organization within the O.T.O., was a bastion of the promotion of Thelemic chivalry as far back as the early 80's. How were you to know this?

          Many know of & appreciate the attempt put forth by the Knights of Baphomet, however, they were not an organization promoting Thelemic Chivalry per se, rather they were a group of individuals forming a sub-order within an existing order, until their unfortunate end.

          The key difference, & the basis for the claim, is that the Order of Thelemic Knights is an actual independent organization formed to promote ennobling behavior.


    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Grand Seneschal on Friday March 23, @04:46PM
      Even the most cursory perusal of OTO constitutional papers cannot fail to include notice of the chivalric component in the Lover Grade Degrees. One might object that the chivalric basis for OTO is Masonic faux-knighthood, but I fail to see a more profound legitimacy in OTK.

      That is true, there is a strong component contained within the OTO -- the sister/brotherhood is a core component of chivalry, or any other mode of ennobling the individual. However, this is hardly the focus of the OTO -- though it could easily be said that the focus of the OTO is parallel, & that the goals of both the OTO (as I perceive it via Crowley's writings) & those of the OTK compliment each other nicely.

      If the existence of a stand-alone group that promotes chivalric values as its raison d'etre, we would be more than happy to modify the FAQ to reflect the truth.


      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
        by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday March 23, @05:09PM
        >If the existence of a stand-alone group that promotes chivalric values as its raison d'etre, we
        >would be more than happy to modify the FAQ to reflect the truth.

        Forgive my skepticism, but this new "stand-alone" qualification seems like it's being introduced because the claim of priority is so important to your group (for what reason I can't comprehend). Surely if the O.T.O. allowed a group of individuals to operate a "sub-order" within the existing order to promote chivalric values, then the organization as a whole deserves credit for it.


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Grand Seneschal on Friday March 23, @05:43PM
          Forgive my skepticism, but this new "stand-alone" qualification seems like it's being introduced because the claim of priority is so important to your group (for what reason I can't comprehend).

          Forgiven ;). The "claim of priority" is actually irrelevant. Even if the other group(s) were considered independent, they are not active at this time, nor are they currently doing appreciable work. I added "stand-alone" to clarify our understanding of what we are stating.

          Perhaps you could edify my understanding by listing the accomplishments of the "Knights of Baphomet", so that I can understand your position that they predate us as a chivalric order promoting charitable work.

          Surely if the O.T.O. allowed a group of individuals to operate a "sub-order" within the existing order to promote chivalric values, then the organization as a whole deserves credit for it.

          I am not against acknowledging the OTO & its contributions to the promulgation of the Law of Thelema. However, your statement makes little sense. If a group formed within the OTO to rob banks, should the Order take responsibility for those actions, or should they be deemed the acts of individuals within the order.

          I admit the analogy is a little tenuous, but I have been a little short on sleep lately.


        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
          by Thelemic Knight on Friday March 23, @06:37PM
          Si Vales, Valeo:

          I don't want to get in this tit-for-tat discussion in which we compare these two different Orders with completely different focus.

          Let me phrase it another way: OTK is not an initiating order, but the OTO is. If some of our members developed a set of initiations, without the approval or blessings of the Grand Preceptory, would that make the OTK an initiating Order? I don't think so.

          I have always found it ironic that Thelemites should have so much free time to argue amongst each other. While we argue, other more intelligent groups of individuals are actually doing Work. If we won't entertain the idea of supporting one another, shouldn't we at the very least keep our opinions to ourselves?

          Pax Profundus
          Thelemic Knight


          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
            by Xnoubis on Friday March 23, @07:47PM
            For what it's worth, I'm bewildered by the chilly reception this article is getting from some quarters. I find the concept sublime and entirely admirable. And the forbearance being displayed here by OTK members in the face of such criticism is an inspiration, to me and -- I would hope -- to us all.


            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
              by Tim Maroney on Friday March 23, @10:01PM
              I also am somewhat surprised by the negative reactions. It is head and shoulders over almost all of the new Thelemic groups I have seen form over the last few decades. The basic statement of principles is admirable and the presentation is well-crafted. I think it is all too easy to hurl brickbats at any new group that dares to poke its head up.

              On the other hand, I also have to agree with Paradoxos and Mordecai that there is a factual issue with respect to the OTK's claim of chivalric priority. Chivalric elements are an explicit and integral part of the OTO system, with its Knights and Dames, and that did not start with the Knights of Baphomet. It is simply not accurate for the OTK to say "We are a Chivalric Order. The first to embrace Thelema", and I'm not sure why Paradoxos' gentle correction on this point has met with such a defensive response from the OTK side. Correct the FAQ and move on, why don't we?

              Tim


              • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                by Thelemic Knight on Saturday March 24, @01:28AM
                Dear Tim:

                Si Vales, Valeo

                Thank you, Tim, for your kind words.

                There is an exhaustive list of criteria that must be met before something resembles a knighthood. One of the MAIN things is the work that the Order does to benefit society. Simply holding titles like "Knight and Dame" does not qualify it. Ask a Mason.

                I am still waiting to hear why it is that some people lay claim to the OTO being a knighthood in the true sense of the word. The question has been asked again, and again in various ways, but it has never been answered. Rather, the direction of the thread has been changed to avoid having to answer the question.

                The following is not directed at Tim, but is made for the record:

                No member of this organization would have the nerve or ill manners to ask members of another organization to change something because I disagreed with them. What an unfriendly, unfraternal, and unbrotherly thing to do. That you find nothing wrong with this reflects badly on you and your affiliations. Think about why it is that outsiders hold Thelema with such contempt.

                I will not engage in debate that will require me to resort to the same mud slinging and bashing that my opponents have chosen to engage in. We will not air out dirty laundry or point to the obvious simply because it makes our point: that would not be in the spirit of fraternity. We maintain friendly relations with many Thelemic groups and individuals. We value those relationships.

                If you want to invest the time to convince people, or if people want to believe that our claims are untrue because you can't handle the thought of some other group of people calling themselves Thelemites catering to needs you do not fill, so be it. But we will be true to ourselves, and the way we have defined who we are. The FAQ stays as it is.

                Success is your proof.

                Pax Profundus,
                Thelemic Knight


                • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                  by Mordecai Shapiro on Saturday March 24, @01:56AM
                  I find this response profoundly disturbing. No one here has questioned the basic premise of your organization, merely the claim of priority. If it is so important to you that "The FAQ stays as it is" so be it. It really doesn't matter to me, nor do I feel the need to defend the O.T.O. from anyone's aspersions. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. For a group that claims to be "bringing the light of Thelema to everyone without organizational or sectarian bias" you seem awfully touchy to me.


                  • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                    by Grand Seneschal on Monday March 26, @09:37AM
                    I am not sure what was disturbing. Perhaps I misread something, but one would think that a refusal to engage in mudslinging would be a good thing.

                    We are a chivalric order. To our knowledge, & we do have some familiarity with the various Thelemic groups out there, while there are Thelemic orders which encourage Chivalry, there are no Chivalric Orders. The question, & its answer, lies in focus & purpose. We have not, nor do we intend to, impune the honor of our Brothers & Sisters in Thelema.

                    Elements of Chivalry are present throughout the OTO, they are necessary for the smooth functioning of any social unit. Their promotion is a legacy from it Masonic Roots, another order (well group of orders) that promote Chivalric Behavior yet is not a "Chivalric Order".


                    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                      by Jon Auviere on Tuesday March 27, @12:59PM
                      Arguing whether an order of initiates can be a chivalric and a knight-monk order, of which both terms are expressed by Crowley numerous times that it is so monotonous, is grossly petty. But to say you are the "first and only" to embrace these "by definition" is pathetic. And that is your weakness. I wish you the best of luck brother!


                      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                        by Thelemick Knight on Tuesday March 27, @02:17PM
                        And yet another bit of criticism without any substance what so ever.

                        That Crowley said it was possible in a billion different places is completely irrelevant if it isn't being done today.

                        Sir. Kindly name another Thelemic Order that has made chivalry their main focus. Please refrain from naming Orders who have other primary objectives.

                        Thank you


                        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                          by Jon Auviere on Tuesday March 27, @05:09PM
                          Chivalry implies "self-control", not only that but "will" --ooh, there's that word again. If I'm not mistaken, the O.T.O., the GD, TGD, the R.C., the ____ and others too numerous to mention here, are in fact based on chivalry, and have primary intent thereunto. You may argue however that they may or may not stop at the basics of "will". But that again is up to your discretion.


                          • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                            by Grand Seneschal on Tuesday March 27, @08:59PM
                            You're confusing me, I think the root lies on the non-specific definitions fo such phrases as "Chivalry", "founded" and even "primary intent". Sure, these groups have their roots in the conceptions of Chivalry, but I hardly consider the injunction of "be nice to each other and share" as Chivalric. For me, Chivalry must reach beyond kindergarten politics -- this is not to say that I consider my brethren in the OTO, GD, TGD, RC or ____ to be children.

                            As for focus, the GD is an Initiatory Order. It embraces some chivalric principles to ensure the smooth functioning of its internal affairs. The TGD is the same, except that rather than being Egypto-Xtian, it is Thelemic. The OTO is also an Initatiatory Order with a Charge to implement Thelema as a Social Paradigm. As to RC, I won't even pretend to know what motivates Christian Rosenkruetz & company, & I am amused that you have. By the same token, I refrain from commenting on the ____, as having motivations to unscruitable for me to judge accurately.

                            Chivalry does, by my lights anyway, imply "self-control" and "will" words which we are pleased to see utilized in any Thelemic debate -- especially when they are not presented as antagonistic.


                            • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                              by Jon Auviere on Wednesday March 28, @09:31AM
                              So you're saying that although these groups embrace chivalric principles as you put it, they do not however live up to your standard of Chivalry (with a big 'C'?). And that is what cuts-into-the-grace so to speak? hmm. Now I understand completely.


                              • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                                by Grand Seneschal on Wednesday March 28, @11:51AM
                                That is not what I said, but if that is what you heard so be it. I realized that there was no real chance of resolution on this issue when it started.

                                Enjoy your day, & I wish you well on your path.


                    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                      by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday March 30, @12:30PM
                      That you find nothing disturbing about calling it "unfriendly, unfraternal, and unbrotherly" to ask politely that what one believes to be a misstatement of fact be corrected says everything about your idea of "chivalry" that I need to know.


                      • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                        by Grand Seneschal on Friday March 30, @08:31PM
                        Perhaps if that is what had happened you would be correct. This is not a private dialog, and the response was regarding several items, not just yours -- though your statement could easily be considered accusatory (though I am more than willing to concede that to the flaws inherent in text based communications.

                        However, I think it is pretty safe to state that the post didn't tell you anything you didn't believe already :-)


                        • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
                          by Mordecai Shapiro on Tuesday April 03, @12:51PM
                          >However, I think it is pretty safe to state that the post didn't tell you anything you didn't
                          >believe already :-)

                          What a thoroughly unchivalric comment to make! :-)


    Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
    by Canubis on Monday March 26, @04:11AM
    My respect and good wishes to the OTK. It is heartening to see that some individuals choose to incorporate chivalry and charitable work into their Thelemic world view and if they see fit to found an Order based on these principles, then they are perfectly within their rights to do so. In my view, many Thelemites place far too much emphasis on 'exceed exceed' and not enough on 'be goodly therefore', don't get me wrong, I don't seek to moralise, but if Thelema is to exert the influence on society that it rightly deserves to, charitable acts will serve to help diffuse the 'Satanic' stigma attached to anything Crowleyan. It is also my view that the study of the martial arts would be extremly useful to all able bodied individuals working within the Thelemic paradigm, I myself have been for some years a student of the ancient Japanese art of Ninjutsu and have found that participation in such an art teaches respect for others and oneself, whilst reinforcing the idea that true initiation can only be achieved through hard and often painful work. So what if the OTK seeks to use Feudal titles - an order has to have some form of classification and if members of the OTK are engaged in earnest study of the Warrior Arts, then why not use military terminology? Good luck to the OTK, after all, the state that the OTO appears to be in, engaged as it is in law suits and arguments over claims to be the 'real' OTO, is it any wonder that other Orders are springing up to attract those Thelemites who would rather put some hard work in, rather than bitching endlessly on the internet about spurious claims to lineages?

    • Re: Order of Thelemic Knights
      by Zos Hua on Monday July 23, @02:29PM
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

      Salutations to your Organization, it is good
      to see efforts of Thelemic politique. Tho' I
      cannot speak for the Knight-Monks of the O.'.T.'.,
      as the master of Horus Lodge I welcome your
      work and vitality - Konx Om Pax.

      Love is the law, love under will.
      Fraternally,

      ZosHua 999'.'
      Joshua Zintel



     
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