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  On Liber Oz
General Thelema Posted by Rev. Mike Margolin on Wednesday March 28, @09:00PM
from the bleat-goes-on dept.

93,

Liber OZ, Crowley's constitution for mankind: its words give total freedom.Yet at times, we all know, one man's freedom becomes another man's slavery.Also, one has a tendency to ask, "How can an individual be truly free in a society?"

The truth is, You can't.


In a society, with freedoms (or rights as they are commonly known) come obligations. These obligations are the same checks and balances system our Masonic forefathers set up the U.S. government on. Though we have and exercise certain rights, we must respect those that may feel uneasy with us doing so, thus as to not enslave others with our freedom. A negative example: knocking on your door, selling you my belief system and furthermore condemning you for yours. Sound familiar?

By the way, I'm not saying Christianity is un-American, I'm merely using the contradictions to the constitution as an example to convey my point. By the way, they still teach "manifest destiny" in public school history class as a good thing. So much for separation of church and state. This, though quite American as far as our history goes, is quite un-American as far as the ethics of the U.S. constitution.

Liber OZ is no different.

Though we are free, we are also bound by those very freedoms. "Who I might kill on a whim, might be on their own whim this eve." Freedom is better than slavery, but in a society freedom is your tail tucked between your legs. In slavery it's cut off.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666



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    Knock, knock.
    by Dionysos Thriambos on Wednesday March 28, @09:43PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    While I have no interest in committing door-to-door proselytization myself, I don't think it's unconstitutional or immoral. As long as the evangelist is cooperative if asked to leave, I think that the activity is a reasonable and civil exercise of rights of expression and association.

    Love is the law, love under will.

    • Re: Knock, knock.
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:20AM
      93,
      I agree whole-heartedly.
      The problem lies in the area of not going away if asked, such as Rock Concert and Exotic Erotic Ball protests.
      I'm am known for confronting these good civil Christians exercising their civil liberties.
      My first statement is “Do we do this at your churches on Sundays or any church functions?"
      Mike that's a question! Not really lol
      My 2nd statement is "Do you support freedom of religion?"
      Mike that's a question too!
      No not when you know the answer when you ask it, then its an action or statement not an inquiry.
      My last Statement is "If you are offending people here more than converting them shouldn't you stop?"
      The answer has always been no.
      But I'll keep asking and trying lol
      Good luck to us all on this tiny blue Shit Ball.
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mikey 666


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Shader on Wednesday March 28, @09:48PM
    ...as i am, i consider myself a revolutionary

    does that mean i literaly, go out and blow up bank of America, like some so-called revolutionaries
    did in the late sixties-early seventies?

    no there have been times when i 'felt' like doing
    that, but as the seventies wore on, and marching
    against the Vietnam war drew to a close,( i was a draft resister myself)...i began to look inward for a source (resource) to channel my rightious
    rage against the death machine, the death culture,
    and the dead and dying mentality to not take me over; no easy answers, i hated mindless authority
    with a purple(and green) passion...Christ on a crutch was not my answer, i looked to the artists
    and poets of the surrealist revolution for my clues...and so one day i came across a another kind of manifesto, liber Oz!...to me it read like a surrealist manifesto poetic tract!(rant)?

    an injunction to write, carve,mold ect. on no uncertain terms, an ultimatum on a poetic/philosophical level
    that Nietszche would have approved of
    being that he saw ART as the revolutionary thing to do by holding a mirror up to society, and if
    the mass mentality sees it's image shatter therein, then so mote it be!

    there are no easy answers, only creative action!
    ask the awkward questions in every nook and cranny
    in society, until the mirror shatters so bad that
    that the fragments of our fragile psyche's become
    like shards of reflecting truth of good and evil, and beyond....to other, strange attractors!?!?

    these shards will become our Thelemic swords to be forged in the furnace of transformation....

    hail...Liber Oz

    how was that for an idiot rant!

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by The Central Scrutinizer on Thursday March 29, @09:02AM
      > how was that for an idiot rant!

      As far as idiot's rants go, it was average.


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:05AM
      93,
      Personaly I thought it kicked ass!!!
      LOL
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mikey 666
      p.s. O hell I loved it lol


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Virbius on Thursday March 29, @07:59AM
    The 26th Law of Magick, from "Magick in Theory and Practice" by Aleister Crowley

    (26) Every man has a right, the right of self-preservation, to fulfil himself to the utmost.¹

    Illustration: A function imperfectly preformed injures, not only itself, but everything associated with it. If the heart is afraid to beat for fear of disturbing the liver, the liver is starved for blood, and avenges itself on the heart by upsetting digestion, which disorders respiration, on which cardiac welfare depends.

    ¹ Men of "criminal nature" are simply at issue with their true Wills. The murderer has the Will-to-Live; and his will to murder is a false will at variance with his true Will, since he risks death at the hands of Society by obeying his criminal impulse.

    This, to me, is one of the central principles of Thelema, and one of the principles that humanity as a whole greatly needs to hear and practice at this time.

    93/93
    Frater Virbius

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Shader on Thursday March 29, @05:43PM
      ...notice there is no coincedence, that central
      scrutinizer(no identifer)...and the below
      highly technical post, where the last line reads:
      bla bal bla, the CENTRAL principle of Thelema

      see, maybe it matters little, however when people talk about being honest about thier "true wills" ect, they should be honest on all fronts,
      and not practice pettyness...

      it is not a competition, to show how thelemic you can be by acting like a little uptight citizen!

      but yes i am a fan of Zappa...not crappa! creedy!

      and we know what Zappa thought, information is not
      necessarly knowledge, knowledge is not ncessarly wisdom, and wisdom is not necessarly truth,ect.

      and in this case i would add true belief is not necessarly proof that there is anybody home, even though the lights are on!!!!

      think on these things!......................93XOX


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Virbius on Thursday March 29, @07:40PM
        > ...notice there is no coincedence, that central
        > scrutinizer(no identifer)...and the below
        > highly technical post, where the last line
        > reads: bla bal bla, the CENTRAL principle of
        > Thelema

        A mere coincidence. But I've got to admit that I really don't read your posts at all anymore. I'd be really surprised if you actually had anything to say.

        > they should be honest on all fronts,
        > and not practice pettyness...

        Practice what you preach, or please just shut up. Sorry if my post seems inflamatory. I feel that what I am saying here is in every way honest and not at all petty.

        Eventually I will go back to just ignoring you.



        93/93 Frater Virbius


        • Re: On Liber Oz
          by Shader on Thursday March 29, @08:31PM
          ...yes that is a good thing to do, ingore
          what you cannot face in your self!

          but what could i expect, from someone that calls himself a christian thelemite...?

          ignor away
          ignor your own self-important bullshit
          ignor the fact that you are just stuborn
          and blind faith can not and will never
          be Thelemic...

          ignor what it is you cannot understand
          ignor the ignor-ance on your own position
          ignor the overwhelming facts, since when
          does a christian that calls himself a thelemite
          HAVE ANY THING TO SAY, that matters shit to a tree!...ignor that which does not act like a
          false ego with a vengence, because your false ego
          is all you have to cling to, anybody can take a position, and argue it for for all your worth,
          like in some collage debate class, that does not mean you have anything to say, except to the slave mentality, which if truth be told is your
          reason for being here, as if, it it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, who cares about principle!!!...if you are totaly lost in SPIRIT!
          being dishonest with your self is not evidence of thelemic spirit and troting
          out some educated guesses, does not make a Thelemite!...no matter how slick your credentails!

          but setting aside what is and is not Thelemic in spirit!

          who do you want to say something to?

          somebody that is impressed with your educated facade'...your ability to phrase some important sounding language in a legal sounding jargon

          hey i am impressed!...hey the Catholic Church
          sounds very impressive, very legal, very rational!
          they REALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY!....so should
          i listen to them?.......HELL NO!

          what are you afraid of?...just being a Thelemite?
          and if that dosn't work you can always go back to the Catholic Chruch...and be a drunk monk!

          put on some sack cloth and pray yourself into paradise!

          yes please do ignore what you cannot possibly understand!...because it is NON-rational!!!!!!

          and this way folks to the next attraction!
          off to this side we have the Daath ride...

          but of course, you have to leave your "rationality"(pre-concieved notions about reality)
          at the door of perception...

          (0)(-o)()(OO)(o)ooo


          • Re: On Liber Oz
            by Virbius on Thursday March 29, @11:20PM
            I am so brain dead, ignorant, and uncool that I am just going to ignore you now.


            • Re: On Liber Oz
              by Shader on Friday March 30, @03:04AM
              ...you can ignore me intil your dull mind impoldes, it is no odds, but you can't ignore your
              own self-deception, there are plenty of small minded people like you, that like to talk big.
              and there are plenty of small minded people that will even pretend to listen you, fool yourself,
              pretend you are an important person, you are just a little phony..jirk!

              gad you sound like a christain!!!

              ( i talked to this twerp through e-mail, he really
              is an insufferable snob, he really plays games)!!!


              • Re: On Liber Oz
                by Virbius on Friday March 30, @10:29AM
                I am serious as a fucking heart attack:

                I WANT YOU BANNED

                Yes, I've talked to you through e-mail. I've heard your story. The reason that you were, for all intents and purposes THROWN OUT of the O.T.O. is as follows:

                a) You are an idiot
                b) You are an asshole
                c) You are irritating as all fucking get out.


                I WANT YOU BANNED

                later asshole.


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by matt vaughn on Thursday March 29, @09:24PM
    93,

    not to be rude but...this post is entirely
    incorrect. and to me shows that the author
    simply doesnt have a clear understanding of
    thelema.

    Rev. Mikey 666 claims that "Liber OZ, Crowley's constitution for mankind: its words give total freedom.Yet at times, we all know, one man's freedom becomes another man's slavery.Also, one has a tendency to ask, "How can an individual be truly free in a society?...The truth is, You can't."

    the truth is..."every man and every woman is a star"

    its hard for me to understand how a person
    can call themselves a thelemite and say that
    man can never be free in a society. i mean, uuuhhh "every man and woman is a star"? if
    everyone in a society was following their proper orbit (doing their ture will) then there would
    be no conflict and everybody would be free. this
    is not one of the central principles of thelema!!
    this is THE central principal of thelema. im not trying to flame here, its just that it really bothers me to see thelema misinterpreted so incorrectly in a forum such as this. well as they say "as brothers fight ye"

    93 93/93
    matt
    http://mattvaughn.topcities.com

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Thursday March 29, @11:16PM
      I wouldn't go so far as to say that Mike does not understand Thelema at all, that's simply not true. However, I had almost the same reaction to his article. It's as if he's saying "Don't take Crowley too seriously man, you might upset someone". I thought that was the point? I thought people were supposed to be upset enough to stir their feeble asses into grok'ing what the hell Thelema is about, finding their True Wills instead of wandering aimlessly through life thinking they've got it "all figured out".

      "A function imperfectly performed injures not only itself but everything associated with it"


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Rev. Mike Margolin on Saturday March 31, @01:51PM
        93,
        Yes, in a way don't take Crowley too seriously, but broader.
        Don't take any Ideology, religion, or philosophical belief too seriously.
        As for stars and orbits that would work if it were accepted on a worldwide basis, but that will never happen. The only time man unites is to better or increase his survival. Cultures, Ideologies and religions will always and forever compete. Just like the governments that make them behave. So as far as my article being presented only in the Thelemic light I'd say no, it was more of a generalist piece on society, using a Thelemic doctrine to raise a point on the Paradox of individual freedom in any given society.
        93/93/93
        ISN
        Rev. Mikey 666


        • Re: On Liber Oz
          by Virbius on Saturday March 31, @03:41PM
          > As for stars and orbits that would work if it
          > were accepted on a worldwide basis, but that
          > will never happen.

          I can't see how you could say this. This is once again the basis of my argument with your viewpoint. Please reread the Introduction to "Magick".

          > The only time man unites is to better or
          > increase his survival.

          The fact is that this is precisely what is at issue. It may not be clear at this present moment, but there will come a day, soon, when many will wish they had considered this. Anyone who does not see the danger is simply in denial if you ask me.

          The media and government do a wonderful job of keeping us in denial by their lies and coverups. Organized religion is by all means under the definition of Government, whether one chooses to believe it or not.

          > Cultures, Ideologies and religions will always
          > and forever compete.

          As will become apparent in the article that I am preparing, I have a strong and unshakeable doctrine of the value of differing cultures, ideologies and religions. One of my most scathing criticisms of the Christian Church has been the well documented and widespread destruction of primitive cultures in the name of "Evangelism".

          > So as far as my article being presented only in
          > the Thelemic light I'd say no, it was more of a
          > generalist piece on society, using a Thelemic
          > doctrine to raise a point on the Paradox of
          > individual freedom in any given society.

          In the end, you probably hold the upper hand in the argument. We all KNOW that there is more to "Do What Thou Wilt" than "Whatever the fuck I want", and it seems to me your present case is along that very well known, valid line of reasoning. I am only pointing out that we do not at present know the limits of our abilities (please read the forementioned introduction) and that certain limitations you are placing on yourself and others are incorrect foredrawn conclusions. There is more at stake than meets the eye, and to limit yourself, and others, by placing premature bounds on your philosophy will come back to bite you in the end. Suffice to say that there are limits. That being the essence of your argument, I have no debate. I feel that it was better stated by one of the contributers above though, who said that Liber Oz and Liber Al do not use the words "free" or "freedom" even once, but put forth the necessary restriction: "You have no right but to do your will".

          Personally, as concerns this, and many such matters of limit, I side with William Blake:

          "How can one know what is enough unless one first knows what is too much"
          - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"

          This is the essence of my choosing to marry Crowley to my Christ, hopefully that metaphor is not too vulgar for you. If it is, go fuck yourself! :p

          Just kidding and you know it Mike...

          93 Frater Virbius


          • Re: On Liber Oz
            by Rev. Mike Margolin on Saturday March 31, @07:11PM
            93 lol,
            This is the essence of my choosing to marry Crowley to my Christ, hopefully that metaphor is not too vulgar for you. If it is, go fuck yourself! :p

            Just kidding and you know it Mike...

            93 Frater Virbius
            Um lol heheheh I was wondering is masterbation a form of homosexuality? lol
            If so not only do I fuck myself on a ritualistic daily basis but I guess I'm a gay man that only likes women besides myself lol
            I love Paradoxs
            93/93/93
            ISN
            Rev Mikey 666


            • Re: On Liber Oz
              by Virbius on Saturday March 31, @07:17PM
              "For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence.

              "It appears from the Magical Records of Frater Perdurabo that He made this particular sacrifice on an average about 150 times every year between 1912 e.v. and 1928 e.v.

              "It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of the Magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood, but his creative power."

              Myself, I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Friday March 30, @01:17AM
      I also wholly agree with you that "this is THE central principle of Thelema". I don't really think it could be better said.

      "if everyone in a society was following their proper orbit (doing their true will) then there would be no conflict and everybody would be free"

      To hell with all of you (one or two idiots really) who say that my conviction, my faith, or my belief causes me to be ignorant. I hold this statement above to be of absolutely primary essence. I believe this with all of my heart, mind, body and soul.

      Those of you who choose to conflict with me should be reminded/warned that I hold to a literal interpretation of Liber Oz as well as the more common philosophical approach.

      93/93 Frater Virbius


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Shader on Friday March 30, @03:15AM
        ...now the little snob is making threats,...oh big man, what a
        good little christain!

        want to kill me, you little creep! you and what crusade!..now run along and play with your Bible


        of course nobody will touch this with a ten foot post!

        fuck christainity!...i am on the other hand a Thelemite...!

        and i will defend my freedom of mind and soul with my life!...every man and every woman is a STAR

        not a crusifix!!!


        • Re: On Liber Oz
          by Shader on Friday March 30, @03:25AM
          ...oh and please be so good as to, ignore me

          but you didn't, you had to defend christianity!

          classic schizo! people?

          a christian that pretends to be a Thelemite?

          or something more sinister?


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Akephalos on Friday March 30, @04:44PM
      93,
      I just reread Liber OZ and is does not promise "total freedom".

      Liber OZ

      It does, in fact, lay a heavy restriction.

      "thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." - AL. I. 42-3

      This is not "total freedom". This is a very excellent way to live. It does come with the responsibility of acting according to one's true will. So, while I will call it desirable, I will not call it "total freedom". Worse, as you point out, everyone has to act thusly as well.

      Curious, I grepped for free and did not the phrase "free" in either Liber OZ or Liber AL.

      93 93/93

      Akephalos

      It has always bothered me that, in astronomy, stars sometimes collide.


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Virbius on Friday March 30, @05:30PM
        This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:38AM
        its words give total freedom
        93,
        This one is too easy too lol
        You took it out of context bro.
        And in the piece I state the same thing you do, with freedom, come responsibilities. (Thats the PARADOX!!!!!!!)
        That is the point of the article.
        I'm loving this lol
        93/93/93
        ISN
        A totally busting up Rev. Mikey 666
        P.S. One does not have to use the words free or freedom to discuss it.
        LOL


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:26AM
      the truth is..."every man and every woman is a star"

      93,
      This one is too easy.
      Stars are slaves of their orbit.
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mikey 666
      P.S. Next lol


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:56AM
      93,
      You were not rude in the least.
      Hell you were down right polite.
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mikey 666
      P.S. I'm much much more than just a Thelemite.


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Xnoubis on Friday March 30, @09:08AM
    There are so many subtle flavors of discussion to be explored.

    The problem I have with all this flaming is that it distracts greatly from the appreciation of other modes of discourse. One charred course can ruin the whole meal.

    First of all, I'd like to see people ignore flames. Don't flame in return; it only makes it worse.

    Secondly, please don't take the initiative to flame. There is no point to be made that can't be made better by not pointing fingers.

    I have been in the practice of removing postings that were gratuitously aggressive. But as traffic on the site increases, and some people seem incapable of being civil for long, this process of culling is becoming more and more of a drag.

    Please, just stop it.

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Tau Aleph on Friday March 30, @10:19AM
      Time to install the *real* SlashCode and enable moderation?


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Xnoubis on Friday March 30, @10:49AM
        I can enable moderation with the present software, actually. That's certainly worth considering. I've been reluctant to do that up to now, since it would put a crimp in the flow of discussion. But so does all this flaming, come to think of it...

        I'll put this up as an article; it deserves further discussion.


        • Re: On Liber Oz
          by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @11:12AM
          93,
          No way don't moderate.
          Though you view flaming as a distraction it really ain't that bad.
          Some of it is fucking funny.
          Anyway bro you have to admit it does hold a bit of entertainment value lol
          Plus like every one is saying its the stars orbit and freedom of speech lol
          I'm sorry lol But I knew this was gonna happen when I saw the topic of Oz being discussed by email.
          Since it was such a hot topic there I thought it would be great fun to bring it here, BOY WAS I RIGHT lol
          Anyway I love you all and shine on you crazy diamonds. You should all be grateful I'm not Crowley lol
          "Every man and every woman is a stoner"
          "Do what you can get away with shall be the whole of the law"
          "Love is the law, but where a rubber"
          93/93/93
          ISN
          Rev. Mikey 666


          • Re: On Liber Oz
            by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @12:36PM
            LOL LOL LOL


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Lee on Saturday March 31, @07:52PM
    93

    One of the basic problems of liberal democracy is that it becomes merely a process of counting heads regardless of thier content, and in emphasising rights at the expense of responsabilities, with the inevitable result of social breakdown, crime, and the advent of moral defects such as pacifism. I do not beleive the Founding Fathers had this in mind when they framed the constitution, and indeed as you say they attempted a system that contained checks and balances, and which rightfully limits democratic franchise in certain ways (though not enough in my opinion). But with the proliferation of absurd notions of "rights" through the civil liberties industry this balance is breaking down. The Liberty of Thelema is not the same as the liberal notion of "doing what I want", which has become the mantra since the sixties, but is a Liberty that requires great discipline and fortitude of will. I personally agree with the teaching of America's Manifest Destiny in schools and I accept it completely myself. The emerging of America's "New Order of the Ages" in 1777 is closely tied to the advent of the New Aeon in 1904.

    93 93/93

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Saturday March 31, @09:05PM
      Now, I don't really know about all that stuff after "Manifest Destiny" because I don't really recall what that is, but everything up to it...?

      RIGHT ON MAN!

      Absolutely!

      The problem with Society, and BeastBay, being somewhat of a microcosm, is that "everybody gets a fair share" is bullhsit if everybody does not contribute a fair share.

      'nuff said.


      • hAPpY ThOUgHt!
        by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @03:19AM
        Truth is Objective. Stupidity is Curable. I hold a sort of "Happy Thought" that the stupid¹ should be gassed as an incentive to convince people to study and learn. As pointed out by Rev. Mikey by e-mail, taking this farther than a mere "Happy Thought" is over the line. It's a nice Happy Thought though...

        ¹ By stupid, I certainly do not mean the genuinely Developmentaly Disabled. Those people are beautiful! I mean the guy driving a BMW in the fast lane going 45 talking on his cell phone. "Pull over, buddy! Straight to the showers!"


        • Re: hAPpY ThOUgHt!
          by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @09:58AM
          93,
          Are you sure your not one of mine?
          LOL
          Christianity and Satanism do have quite a few common threads lol
          By the way that yuppie in the Beemer on the cell phone is a STAR lol
          Again this is all the Freedom Paradox I mentioned in the original article.
          Who you may wish to gas, may wish to gas you.
          Therefore in a society we are bound by not only the freedoms of that society but the others in that society that may not see things as you do. That or the outright hate your existence, such as the Klan, neo-Nazi's and Blacks and Jews. lol
          I realize this board is a predominately Thelemic board in nature but Thelema is not the only reality in the world and has to compete with the rest. Whenever I make a post it will never ever be solely in the light of Thelemic Philosophy. But it will show a foot hold of Thelemic philosophy in society and often compared with competing or existing religions, realities, ideologies, and philosophies.
          While you’re in your orbits you beautiful stars remember look around while your spinning.
          360-Degree Views are so much more inspiring than that of a plow horse.
          93/93/93
          ISN
          Rev. Mikey 666


          • Re: hAPpY ThOUgHt!
            by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @12:39PM
            Wow.


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Sunday April 01, @09:34AM
      93,
      Manifest Destiny is no different than the Nazi Ideal of world domination.
      I suppose you like Hitler's dream as well. And if you do, well I support your right to belief, I just don’t agree with it. Would you mind me writing a poem on how the Great Spirit told me to tell all his people to massacre the whites and take back this land? I really don’t think that would fly to well with the general public and federal government, but I’m sure the Indian Nations wouldn’t mind it as much as the non-Indians lol
      Again Freedom is a two edged sword. “Jack Parsons”
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mike666
      AKA
      White Cloud
      1/4 Bitter Root Indian


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Rev. Mike Margolin on Sunday April 01, @09:37AM
        93,
        OOOOoopps,
        Um I did write that poem lol
        "The Last Peyote' Song" CR "91"
        So I'm as guilty as the rest lol
        Least I'm honest about it lol
        :P
        93/93/93
        ISN
        Lil Devil Mikey 666


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Nekial on Saturday March 31, @09:14PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

    I think Crowley addressed this pretty well in his comment on I:42. I'll just quote a little from the end:

    "One would have thought that a mere glance at nature would have sufficed to disclose her scheme of individuality made possible by order."

    In his comment on the next line, he says:

    "...so great is the power of asserting one's right that it will not long be disputed. For by doing so one appeals to the Law."

    He goes on to say, "The slave-spirit invites oppression." And will get it (even if everyone else refuses to treat them so, f.i., in drugs).

    Love is the law, love under will!

    Re: On Liber Oz
    by RIKB on Monday April 02, @03:40AM
    93!

    Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't understand what the paradox is that you're trying to point out. I don't see how the freedoms declared in OZ could ever really be applied to enslaving others, granted that all others have the same freedoms. It's fairly clear that thwarting the rights of others is not one of the rights we are guaranteed. There's always the point that if others are doing what they want, they aren't necessarily doing what we want them to -- which certainly may be inconvenient for the petty tyrant, but I don't see that it steps on any essential right to have people conform to our expectations.

    Liber OZ is fine as far as it goes -- the issue is that it creates more problems than it solves -- rather, a whole host of problems that are solved artificially by the restrictions society places on its citizens suddenly have to be solved through means other than restrictive, top-down control. At one time, these controls were effected through custom, tradition, superstition, or taboo. Those societal controls lost their compelling character somewhere along the line, so proscriptive & prescriptive laws, backed up with police powers, were invented to take their place. Get rid of those restrictive laws, and the original age-old problems are still here. Liber OZ doesn't tell us how to solve those problems, it just gives us a set of things we can't fuck with in the process of solving them. Liber OZ doesn't make anything easier -- it only makes things harder, despite its appearance of giving extreme license. The recent moderation debate just demonstrates that. Now there's a paradox worth contemplating!

    While we're on things that bother us about Liber OZ, though, I've often been vaguely uncomfortable about the fact that it doesn't declare the right to worship as one will -- aside from the fact that "worship" has two syllables. How about "man has the right to groove on god as he will?"

    93 93/93
    RIKB
    http://www.horusset.com/RIKB

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Monday April 02, @05:28AM
      Yeah, I found the essence of the original article to be impenetrable in the same way. I address that in the long post above beginning "I don't see how you could say that...This is the essence of my argument with your viewpoint". As stated there "suffice to say there are limits" is somewhat inarguable. Where those limits reside certainly depends on the situation, and as also stated there I feel that the central mistake made by Rev. Mikey in his presentation was that he began to prescribe general limitations to all applications of Liber Oz.

      As concerns the worship point you brought up, I don't have a definite answer, I can only say that like many parabolic philosophical writings, what you suggest seems to be implied. It also does not say "Man has the right to masturbate" unless you consider that an application of "make love where and with whom he will" but that does seem to be a bit of a stretch in interpretation. And I think we can say, safely, with the advocacy of science in our corner, that Crowley masturbated.


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Rev. Mike Margolin on Monday April 02, @08:21AM
      93,
      The recent moderation debate just demonstrates that. Now there's a paradox worth contemplating!

      This is the paradox I tried to point out in my article lol.
      But all the posts actually pointed it out better by example lol

      While we're on things that bother us about Liber OZ, though, I've often been vaguely uncomfortable about the fact that it doesn't declare the right to worship as one will -- aside from the fact that "worship" has two syllables. How about "man has the right to groove on god as he will?"

      Agreed, that should be in there too.
      Thank you for your post.
      You are most helpful.
      93/93/93
      ISN
      Rev. Mikey 666


    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @02:55AM
      Furthermore, a point that I doubt many would hear me argue, but the text absolutely states "There is no God but Man" very prominently at the beginning.

      Still... I hold to be true what I concluded above, that "To Worship" even "God" is implied. Crowley's stance on "God" is quite contradictory throughout his writings. One point that I don't think people often take into account is that he used a great deal of sarcasm and intentional comic deceit in his writings. As I've stated my opinion before, I think he was "full of shit" more often than not. I don't mean this in the respect that he didn't know what he was talking about, but that he was intentionally, consciously thumbing his nose at the reader, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, with the clear intent of teaching the reader to distinguish between content and bullshit.

      I'm not going to say that I have a good understanding of Crowley's stance on God. I think I do. He was very obtuse. Ultimately, I know what I get out of MY interpretation of his stance on God, and I have found so much value in his Theology that I have chosen to make the study of his works (Crowley) a focus of my life.

      In summary, remember that I am a Christian who believes in an Objective and Personal God whom I absolutely worship. And yet, "There is no God but Man".

      My head hurts. It is late. I'm going to stop playing "Aleister Explains Everything" and leave something to the deductive reasoning skills of the reader.


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @10:47AM
    "There is no God but Man".
    93,
    Being one of the worst living poets of our age, I'll tortue you with a poetic comment to your post lol
    "A Lie"
    A lie is merely man's means of creating reality.
    Therefore, truth itself is but a lie and man is god and gods are liars. Reality is subjective and is as diverse as those masses of mad men, proclaiming their Sanity.
    The End
    CR 91
    The Mad Poet Acbhb
    Lil ol me :P
    93/93/93
    ISN
    Rev. Mikey 666
    P.S. the poem is more fun when read by some one impersonating General Pattan.

    • Re: On Liber Oz
      by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @12:52PM
      Psalm 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

      I have to disagree that "Reality is subjective". Avogadro's number and Pi are certainly not subjective, and they are both very much reality. People's interpretations of reality are, by definition, subjective. I agree with the whole maps and models theory of Robert Anton Wilson and Tim Leary. Reality, ultimately is our perception of it, and our Science is our best take on explaining what we experience. But reality is NOT subjective, reality is by definition OBJECTIVE. Our perception is what is subjective.

      Love you bro. Just yakking.

      93 Virbius


      • Re: On Liber Oz
        by Rev. Mike Margolin on Tuesday April 03, @03:05PM
        93,
        Ehh, thats just your reality :P
        But I did love your post.
        Thanks for the help.
        93/93/93
        ISN
        Mikey 666


        • Re: On Liber Oz
          by Virbius on Tuesday April 03, @09:59PM
          I guess you could conclude that reality is subjective by skipping a step. Don't misinterpret what I've said as meaning that reality is not plastic, on the contrary, I want to say "within bounds it is" but I wouldn't even agree with that statement. Reality is plastic without bounds, we just are presently unaware of the limits of our abilities, as I've pointed out before.

          But that is Objective in my opinion, it is proven by repeatable experiment. Some people here may know the names of the physicists and their conclusions better than I, but I know of this fact of reality from experience. Our beliefs shape our reality around us, there is no question in my mind about this, but the reality around us exists whether we believe or no! It just changes based on our choices, and most notably the subtle choices of bearing and that funny word: Faith.

          Pardon me if this seems off-topic, and I have no intention to Evangelise per se, but a story of Jesus seems just the thing right here. Although in many cases he is portrayed as the Heirophant, an active channel between the Divine and the Earthly, in one anecdote a person he has just healed praises him for his power which has caused the healing. Jesus replies "On the contrary, it is your faith that has healed you" as if he saw himself as being merely a placebo in the circumstance.

          Whatever it takes to believe in miracles man if you ask me. Ask and ye shall recieve, believe and the thing will be done.


    Re: On Liber Oz
    by Rev. Mike Margolin on Monday April 09, @09:26PM
    93,
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel I've been on the receiving end of the Exorcist on this topic. Stay free and Satan's blessings to you all.
    93/93/93
    ISN
    Lil ol me 666

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