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  Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
General Thelema Posted by Martin Hettland on April 01, 2001 @ 06:51 PM
from the savior-breath dept.

In the book Crowley's Complete Astrological Writings, Chapter 3, "Uranus," page 134, I found these words:

The purity of a strong noble Neptune is the greatest safeguard to this force (i.e. the force of Genius [Genius was also used as a synonym for the HGA by Crowley]); and the Sign of the Cross in its fullest, holiest most Pagan and most Christian sense is its warrant.

For it is not only the Redeemer, but it must itself be redeemed.

To me this seems like Crowley writing that the HGA needs to be redeemed. The words "holiest most Pagan and most Christian sense" reminds me of the identification of Isis, Osiris and Horus with the Christian Trinity, as made by Frater Achad, I think it was in The Anatomy of God. Isis, Osiris and Horus and the Christian Trinity being in essence the same, but manifesting themselves at different times in history.

Comments, anyone?

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    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Rafael Kitover on Monday April 02, @09:43AM
    Neptune is often identified with the Hanged Man card, ruler of Pisces and the 12th house (subconscious). He is nailed at three points. The principle of Neptune is dissolution in the greater whole (think sea), self-sacrifice. Giving up the self to the greater whole, hence "purity" and "noble".

    The concept of having a stronger connection to the HGA is similar to the concept of being more awakened, or having a greater understanding of the universe, closer to the higher Platonic forms. "As above so below", so the HGA is a symbol of the universal godhead, where man and the universe unite.

    In other words, no, nothing needs to be redeemed. Redemption is a metaphor for the spiritual path. The HGA is the universe.

    How are you finding this book by the way? I must admit to eagerly awaiting its U.S. release in June.


    • Upcoming Astrology Release
      by Paradoxos Alpha on Monday April 02, @12:55PM

      The so-called Complete Astrological Writings of Aleister Crowley is a Symonds & Grant edition that has been available for many years. It is decidedly incomplete, only including Crowley's writings on the outer planets, plus a copy of Liber Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia.

      The upcoming Hymenaeus Beta edition of Crowley's Astrology will additionally include all of his writings that he sold to American astrologer Evangeline Adams, and which made up the bulk of "her" books Your Life in the Stars and Your Life in the Sun. It will be easily five times the size of the Symonds & Grant production.

      93 93/93

    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Virbius on Monday April 02, @03:00PM
      "In other words, no, nothing needs to be redeemed."

      I don't see how you could say this, since the quoted text clearly states:

      "For it is not only the Redeemer, but it must itself be redeemed"

      Otherwise, I very much like what you had to say. As far as "Redemption is a metaphor for the spiritual path" I have no argument, but all the more reason why I can't accept the statement made above. "The HGA is the universe" for a while there was a website at www.abramelin.com that had a very lively discussion board and e-mail list on the topic of the Abramelin working and the HGA. One of the things I really liked about that list was that there was a great variety of different opinions about the nature of the HGA, and even though there was even quite a bit of heated debate that used words like "I can't see how you could..." etc. it never, in my recollection, degenerated into hatred or sniping. There was a high degree of actual enlightenment in the list, due to the fact that several key members including the administrator had actually accomplished the operation, and EVERYONE involved had intended to perform the operation or some form of it, and EVERYBODY had a different idea of what it was about. The discussion was so WAY valuable that I am quite disappointed that the site seems to have disappeared without a trace.

      I have some additional thoughts on this topic, but I am waiting for for a few other people to contribute to the discussion first. It is too easy to seem like I am dominating the conversation by simply being the loudest. In the end, if it begins to appear that I am "dominating" the conversation I would like it to be clear that the reason is that I have a clear understanding of the topic, and that I have quite a bit to contribute, not simply that I am a "loudmouth".

    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Martin Hetland on Tuesday April 03, @07:49AM
      I find it amusing.
      I bought it in the bigest secondhand book shop in England, in Rochester in the Kent county.

      I recomend this bookshop to all of you bookworms out there.

      My regards!

    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Mordecai Shapiro on Thursday May 10, @12:33PM
      This comment is quite astute. Grady McMurtry wrote a cycle of poems that was based on the 22 trumps ("The Angel and the Abyss", I think it was called), and his poem about the Hanged Man was entitled "The Redeemer that is in the waters".

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Nekial on Monday April 02, @05:01PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

    It's hard to say with certainty that Crowley is referring to the HGA without reading the piece in question. As I recall, he uses Genius loosely, sometimes in referrence to the HGA, others times not. But no matter:

    Anything 'below' Ipssissumus is in need of 'redemption'. (And Ipssy, too.) The lower self is redeemed by the higher, and the higher by crossing the abyss, and so on. K & C of HGA is not the end, that's all.

    (But the nature of the HGA? Traditionally, an Holy Guardian Angel which doth appear unto thee. Perhaps an embodiment of one's Genius, or higher self, but an individual separate from yourself, with whom one communes. There are certainly other ways of experiencing the 'HGA', but this is the tradition.)

    (The comparison of the Christian trinity and the Egyptian trinity is discussed at length by Spencer Lewis [or is it Lewis Spence...]; can't remember if his work antedates Fra. Achad...)

    Love is the law, love under will.

    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Martin Hetland on Tuesday April 03, @07:57AM
      I think it was Spencer Lewis, he wrote at aproxematly the same time as Fr. Aschad.
      If you search for him on the Amazon books site, you will find that the Lion-Serpent used in this site was used as an illustration on one of his works:.."The Egyptian Mysteries.." or something.
      The number 666 is on tye fromtpage of another of his books.
      (Crowley calles himself "the British Lion-Serpent" in "Magick without Tears".


    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Nexist on Monday April 02, @11:40PM
    To me, it is important to bypass the Xtian specific interpretations of "Reedem". Reedeem can mean (& I think these are relevent to the usage here) "To change for the better", to "repair" or to "restore".

    The HGA is the quality of the soul which is eternal and guides/plans the incarnation. The Self is the incarnated being which is seperated (or appears to be seperated) from the HGA.

    Thus, the "redemption" of the HGA is its restoration via the union of the self with the HGA which is enacted by crossing the abyss. It is the fulfillment of the purpose of incarnation.

    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Nekial on Wednesday April 04, @03:37PM
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

      What about that comment from Crowley that in crossing the abyss the aspirant is stripped of everything, including his/her HGA?

      Love is the law, love under will.

      • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
        by Nexist on Tuesday April 10, @10:37PM
        That could be interpreted in many different ways. There are two selves, the eternal spark and the temporary incarnation (Individuation). The eternal self is that which, from our restricted perception, is externalized as "the HGA". When we cross the abyss, we are stripped of the ego, the temporary projection of the true self, thus only the recurring spark, teh "HGA" is left. By identification, we are stripped of the illusion of seperateness & thus stripped of the HGA.

        This state would be, imo, the Thelemic state of "redemption".

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Micha deBarca on Tuesday April 03, @01:23AM
    Just the one comment that touches upon 'holiest most Pagan AND most Christian sense'.
    Two days ago there was this nice documentary (BBC)about scientific research done concerning the New Testamentical story.

    Calculation of the astronomical situation of roughly 2000 years ago revealed that around that period there occurred a situation of great astrological significance.
    Several planets entering the sign of Aries, among which the foremost was Jupiter, the king.
    Then there supposedly also occurred an eclipse of the moon, with Jupiter showing itself as a morning star. Hence the star in the east/Bethlehem. And the 3 wise men were astrologers from the region of Babylon and thereabouts.

    (: and Joseph was rather decent to take the pregnant Mary as his wife, as Jewish law was harsh towards unmarried women -stoning them)

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Jon Auviere on Tuesday April 03, @10:40AM
    Nobility is similar to honor, in rise from faith as the strongest possible bond. In beyond reason men must act without appeasing to stray purpose. Triumph of the Will is the only redeeming quality. It can be silenced by the illusion of reason, but only if a man has not honor to do this will. "Success is your only proof." The old game of statistic science is perversion.

    Example, one man argues that mercy killing is wrong. The other man says it is wrong for his patient to suffer with late-stage terminal illness that mutilates body and soul is terrible.

    Well, the first man knows nothing of this illness firsthand. The second deals with this tragic death on a daily basis. He speaks from his heart and experience.

    Who is right? No one knows. But the man of Noble Will is undoubtedly the latter man. He says mercy killing is just for me. And shouts Vive la Will!

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by aZAG on Wednesday April 04, @04:49PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

    The mystical path, planetary alignment, purified Yetzirahtic attainment, movement and description, reconciled impurities - corrected of imbalance.
    The K & C of the HGA. Pure transmission of the Divine Animation as Intelligence and abiding within.
    Lower Redemption.
    Below the Abyss.

    Destruction of ego(shell) relational existence, move lower aspect into Higher Unity. The Abyss. Reabsorbtion back into the Origin of Divine Emanation. Rebirth.
    Higher Redemption.
    Above the Abyss

    Love is the law, love under will.


    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by aZAG on Wednesday April 04, @05:52PM
      In relation to my previous statements concerning "but it must itself be redeemed."

      I must make the following correction:
      Not "Rebirth"

      but - "Growth in the Womb".
      Higher Redemption.
      Above the Abyss
      Ad-Exemptus (and so forth)...


    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Teitan666 on Tuesday April 10, @08:10AM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Keep in mind that in the O.T.O. symbolism the phallus is the redeemer. Another interesting thing to note is the new Aeon gnostic trinity of Iaachus, Asi and Orus as Iao, Father, Mother, Son.

    Love is the law, love under will.


    • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
      by Martin Hettland on Friday April 13, @11:48AM
      "For it is not only the Redeemer, but it must itself be redeemed."

      Does this mean that the phallus must itself be reddemed, and if yes, by what/whom must it be reddeemed?

      Regards: Martin.

      • Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
        by Martin Hettland on Saturday April 14, @08:52PM

        On Koenig's site there is something about Crowley regarding Homosexual sexmagick to be of higer value then heterosexual magick.

        So if the phallos is the Redeemer but must itself be redeemed, this might mean that Crowley intended the Redeemer-Phallos to be redeemed by another phallos.

        Regards: Martin Hettland.

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Fr. Zarathustra on Monday April 16, @01:48PM
    Note that in Crowley's discussion of Liber Samech, he notes that, since the particular enlightenment is only of Tiphareth, it is limited.

    [Crowley's comment comes after the declaration in the Attainment: "I am He who hates that evil should be wrought in the world." At higher levels, the presence of evil is seen as necessary.]

    Perhaps this explains why even the HGA would need to be redeemed. In Tiphareth we can say that the person has become self-integrated, and have a knowledge of their purpose. But there are higher forms of enlightenment.

    Crowley also notes [I forget the source] that one needs to give up one's HGA to cross the Abyss.

    Pleas comment!

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Scorpious on Thursday June 21, @06:27PM
    The message is:
    The Redeemer is in the Waters...

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by Tyron Griffin on Wednesday February 13, @03:48AM
    The Hanged Man/Dying God represents the descent into darkness so as to redeem the light. Neptune is the soul or as Peter Gabriel would say " He's the priest, he's the doctor, he can handle the shocks" (I have Neptune in the first house by the way.)

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by HeruRaHa on Saturday March 09, @09:13PM
    The concept of reciprocal redemption which Crowley appears to refer to there reminds me a bit of the "bootstrapping" technique which appears in Liber XV, The Gnostic Mass.

    For those of you not familiar with it, essentially the process is one wherein the priestess purifies/redeems the "dead" priest, which in turn gives him the power/authority to purify/redeem her.

    Despite the fact that I was raised with a rather strict Lutheran upbringing, I don't necessarily think that the idea of redemption or a Redeemer implies that the one being redeemed is in some way broken, or Fallen from Grace.

    Here are a few of the definitions of redeem from webster.com:

    to free from what distresses or harms; to free from captivity by payment of ransom; to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental...

    This idea of reciprocal redemption, particularly, is what fascinates me. It is almost as if redemption can only be a two-way street...

    I'm all out of ideas....

    Re: Is a Redeemer Required in Thelema?
    by starphoenix on Monday April 01, @06:32PM
    I would caution against using this reference to suggest that Crowley was calling for redemption along the lines you appear to be implying. A redeemer of this type is surely the antithesis of everything Thelema purports to stand for. Crowley frequently made use of allegory and metaphor and I would suggest that reaching any definitive conclusion on the basis of this brief passage might be hazardous.

    He was after all a child of the Plymouth Brethren and had the scripture drummed into him at a young age. He looked up to his father who was a proselytiser of some skill, so it's not surprising if some of theological conditioning survived even Choronzon.

    However I have never once come across any references to a redeeemer that haven't been couched in irony at the very least. Understandably, since the transformational force in Thelema operates from a completely opposite tangent.

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