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  America and the Aeon
Social Justice Posted by Xnoubis on July 04, 2001 @ 11:42 AM
from the altared-States dept.

It's Independence Day in America, and before I get ready to fire up the grill, I thought I'd take a moment to ask for reflections on America from a Thelemic standpoint.

My own view can be summed up in this way: I think of the founding of the U.S. as one of the most important advances in the cause of liberty yet seen, an inspiration to most of the nations of the world. But the America of the past 50 years has become one of the greatest obstacles to liberty, and an example to the nations of the world of what they do not wish to become.

I see Thelema, a tradition uncompromisingly dedicated to liberty, as a channel for the preservation of the best of America's founding ideals, even as the influence of the nation-state itself continues to decline.


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    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Jana Rutkowski on Wednesday July 04, @03:48PM
    I wouldn't say 'decline' as much as reorganize.

    Growing up on the East Coast, the grandchild of immigrants, I had no idea how different the concept of the "American Dream" could be to folks living away from the major urban areas.

    A bit more than 10 years ago I found myself (very long story!) living in a sparsely-populated, rural county away from the coast. Was that ever a case of culture shock! I had failed to comprehend what it meant to be the child a family who had been in the New World for centuries -- whose family had left a Europe involved in outright religious warfare and a class system where there wasn't even a pretense that all human beings were created equal.

    Even today one can drive 4 or 5 hours west of NYC and enter a different country, with a very different culture. Consider a place where over one third of all adults cannot read at the eighth-grade level. Where folks get car-sick if they drive on an expressway (not from traffic zooming by, it's not crowded) over 40 mph. A significant minority choose to live with no utilities -- no electricity, running water, lights, COMPUTERS -- and they are not members of sects like the Amish. That means no bathing in the cold months, which means lice. There is no attempt to separate religion from the public schools: Bibles are openly passed out each year. If a local woman marries a man from outside the area, her children need to have a dual surname so they won't be shunned in the schools. Think of DUKES OF HAZZARD, played for real, without the laff trak.

    If you think this slice of small town USA doesn't have an impact on the urban majority, recall the presidential election just passed. Mr. Heston criss-crossed our state many times, proclaiming his 'holy war' against the Donkey Party and the local media types were in their glory.

    I used to be a complacent liberal, thinking that things might be getting better: more racial/ethnic/religious tolerance and less jingoism -- at least so it seemed in my yuppie environment. I was blissfully ignorant of what was simmering away in the hinterlands.

    IMO, we need first of all to acknowledge that we are a multi-cultural nation in a whole new way. What seems to divide us at first glance -- language, skin color, religious practice -- isn't as wide a gulf as centuries of history (and progress) missing from the lives of some of our citizens.

    The USA cannot hold inself up as a fine example of a free and tolerant society to the world as long as so many of our citizens have never experienced freedom and tolerance. If this very vocal minority can greatly influence who leads our nation -- and, in a way, the planet -- we need to recognize the existence of this group, accept the differences among us, and open up a serious dialog. Consider the Balkans.....

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Nexist on Wednesday July 04, @04:57PM
      The Balkans are not a good example for "Freedom & Tolerance". It actually illustrates the folly of coerced "multiculturalism".

      Several ethnic groups were forced to coexist "peacefully". When the communist government fell, the major factions immediately (& bloodily) remedied the situation. Serbia -- which is still probably the most successful example of multiculturalism with 27 ethnic groups -- suffered horribly so that a bunch of genocidal asses could butcher non-Albanains at their leisure.

      Our response to their (admittedly heavy handed) attempt to restore order & protect the 26 other ethnic groups? We bombed them, killing their civilians, their buildings and their way of life.

      So again, the world seems stermined to punish those who dare to be accepting, & tolerant.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Jana Rutkowski on Wednesday July 04, @06:33PM
        Exactly my point, Nexist! There is a sizeable minority of Americans who believe that a group of elitist liberals are trying to force them to accept our values. And, I am forced to admit, there are undoubtedly those (perhaps well-meaning) outsiders who would like to get out into the boonies and bring these folks up to speed. From an elitest liberal viewpoint, of course. What I am suggesting here is that we try to avoid Balkanization here in the US, if we can. Tolerance is impossible without acceptance -- acceptance that there are real differences here, and we are all in this together.

        Certainly I'm not suggesting I know how to make this happen. However, as a Thelemite, I do acknowledge that individuals (and communities) have a right to live as they will. I would never try to live in that kind of environment again. I can't. I don't have to, fortunately. If they don't have to eat sushi, I surely don't have to have squirrel pot pie. Okay. But quite a few folks I knew there thought it was fine for 8 year olds to smoke -- no one is carded there for tobacco purchases. Again, nothing I can do about it. As a Thelemite, should I do anything about it?

        I wish I could say that so far this a disagreement only, no violence. But I cannot. I don't know about the West Coast, but there are some problems now just west of Philly with a pipe bomber targeting fitness clubs and shopping centers -- on Sundays, usually. Not supposed to be open, you know?

        The government isn't forcing us to live side-by-side here, but the interstate highway system made it possible for us to get closer to them then they would have us. As Thelemites, we feel we have the right to move over the planet as we will, but does that include penetrating someone's cultural zone of comfort?

        It isn't exactly credible for Americans to attempt to dictate to the other communities on the planet how to solve their problems when we have the same ones ourselves, unsolved and unacknowledged.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by the Reverend Rob on Thursday July 05, @12:00AM
          As a resident of one of those backwater rural areas you seem to have problems with, I've come to respect the integrity and community spirit of my neighbors. They aren't nearly the country bumpkins you describe. They don't get carsick, they use whatever they'd like (and yes, there are some mountain men here, a few of which are quite reasonable souls), they're forgiving and tolerant of a wide range of beliefs and practices and judge individuals by how they act. Even the local police are reasonable.

          On the subject of Balkanization, characterizations such as you present of America's rural areas only contribute to it; there is as much depth and difference in the rural areas of the varying regions of the U.S. as there is in major urban areas. However, with that sort of attitude, is it any wonder they don't like people outside their region? Of course, I'm half hoping that such opinions continue, so that this area doesn't get overrun by cretins.

          That said, problems will arise out here should standards be forced upon the area that collectively the residents don't agree with; no one gives me hell about my interests in gnosticism, Thelema, Satanism, or anything else, as long as I leave them the freedom to do the same. Outside regulation and legislation are probably the worst things I see regularly in the area, where the problems of urban wastelands cause the creation of onerous legislation designed to take away further the rights of people who don't have the problem.


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Jana Rutkowski on Thursday July 05, @01:41PM
            Up to a point, I agree with you, Rev. Rob.

            But I don't characterize 'rural America' as one cultural unit. It isn't geography, population density, occupation, or even socio-economic classification that causes the friction. It is culture. Live and let live is the ideal, not just for rural areas but everywhere.

            But the USA is one citizen, one vote. So, I do have some concern about fellow citizens who strongly believe that ethnic/racial/religious/gender/sexual orientation prejudices are biblical. Last winter, near the town where I had lived, a man was picked up at a local gay bar, assaulted, and then dragged to death behind a pickup. Didn't make the national news; wasn't a racial thing but a gay thing? But a horrible hate crime is just that.

            I don't have any need or desire to tell other folks how to live their lives. But, as a human being and a Thelemite, I find it difficult to feel tolerant about communities where even a local guy/gal is more likely to come to harm, just for being 'different'.

            Add to this the real possibility that folks from this area, as part of our armed forces, will be acting as 'peace-keepers' here or abroad....makes me just a tad uncomfortable.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by nexist on Thursday July 05, @09:04AM
          I am normally not considered a Liberal -- though if you mean in the Libertine sense, that is fine. I live in Oregon, there are inbred Loggers in the mountains, Christian Faith Retreats around the cities & generally, the only portions that are Liberal are the Portland & Eugene areas.

          As for imposing on local areas, except for certain constants (no murder, theft, etc) the idea of some over-reaching authoritarian government is anathema. If someone wants to let their kid smoke, drink or do drugs, that is their perogative. It is not the states job to raise children.

          As to OZ, you have the right to go wherever you will, but you must accept the ramifications that you might get shot if you go in the wrong areas.


    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Colin S McLeod on Thursday July 05, @07:55AM
    The U.S. is a nation based on the self-evident falsehood that it is self-evident that all men are created equal. It was the foundational lie which set the nation off the path of genuine enlightenment and onto the path of pandering to the people, a path of darkness which its manifest destiny has led it to impose upon the rest of the world. Viewed as an operation of the Lying Spirits, it was quite a success. One might also view it as the victory of the duplicitous Jefferson over the "unworldly" Adams, and the curious coincidence of their dying on the same 4th of July is, no doubt, familiar to U.S. readers.
    Another 4th of July anniversary is not so well known. This 4th of July was the 83'rd anniversary of the Battle of Hamel, a battle which was later considered to mark the beginning of the end of WWI in that it proved the concept of mechanised attack which was then used in further, greater, victories (and which Fuller further developed after the war only to see his methods used with great success by Nazi Panzers in WWII). It was the first occasion when Australian and U.S. troops fought together and the first offensive battle in which U.S. troops took part in WWI. It was also, so far as I am aware, the first use of U.S. infantry in an assault in a non-defensive war against any foreign nation. The U.S. Army learnt from this success and their course towards ever greater mechanisation, throughout the century to the present, can also be viewed as beginning from that occasion. The operation was commanded by the Australian Major General John Monash, an engineer who planned the attack with an engineer's precision and practicality. He proved in that battle the strategy he called "Peaceful Penetration". The battle lasted 93 minutes, before the dawn of July 4'th, 1918.
    Monash later wrote:"The true role of infantry was not to expand itself upon heroic physical effort, not to wither away under merciless machine-gun fire, not to impale itself on hostile bayonets, but on the contrary, to advance under the maximum possible protection of the maximum possible array of mechanical resources, in the form of guns, machine-guns, tanks, mortars and aeroplanes; to advance with as little impediment as possible; to be relieved as far as possible of the obligation to fight their way forward."
    He was not a professional soldier but he proved the means by which the most powerful army of professional soldiers the world has ever seen now dominates the world. As such, it is with mixed feelings that I mark this anniversary; as it is with mixed feelings I regard the U.S.

    CSM

    The Secret Temple
    http://www.duaut.net/


    P.S. For his reward, Hamel's image now graces the Australian One Hundred Dollar bill. For further information on the Battle of Hamel see:

    http://www.france.net.au/aboutfrance/pages/hamel.en.htm

    and

    http://www.iol.net.au/~conway/ww1/hamel.html

    and

    http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/Thesis/Chapter8.html

    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 05, @10:24AM
    Taking into consideration that I am a Canadian, my perspective upon the conflict between individual liberty and what the United States symbolizes differs, perhaps, from that of it's residents. I won't enter into one of my regular venomous diatribes, but will state a few points. Any political system whose leaders are bred from the putrescence of Wealth is inherently elitist. Those same leaders will perpetuate economic inequalities within society, as well as allow themselves to be influenced by those institutions with vast monetary surplus (read Corporations). How can a society whose constituent parts wield no real power in the electoral system be condusive to the quest for Liberty. Choice in a few party system is no choice at all, and partisan politics is slave politics. As to the influence of private interest? I was in Quebec City this April to demonstrate against the FTAA which seeks to give Corporations the legal recourse to supersede the laws of sovereign nations, as well as the rights of individuals. I got gassed. The same happened to friends in Seattle the year previous. And frighteningly, this agenda of the Black Lodge is promulgated by that slack-jawed, slope-browed troglodyte from Texas, Georgey Bush. Land of the Free...I think not. Dog forbid a Pax Americana.

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 06, @03:16AM
      Call me a Christist, but I don't see a problem with corporations acting in accordance with the laws of the land. You have been participating in elections, discussing your views cogently and reasonably with your local representatives on a regular basis, writing in to your local media outlets, appearing at open hearings, and protesting where appropriate, I assume, to get to the point where you can reasonably issue condemnations against the system.

      Then again, if you don't like the laws, work to change them by ballet or bullet, the method picked by whatever seems most apt for you. Since you seem to have exhausted your other alternatives, I hope you're well armed.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 06, @05:00PM
        Corporations under the Free Trade Of The Americas are seeking the 'legal' right to supersede the laws instituted by autonomous nations. I am no pseudo-scientific social darwinist who beleives that the might of Private Interests should allow them the right to tramp down those who stand in the way of the accumulation of vulgar amounts of money.

        When corporate economic advantages can afford lobbyists, the weight my vote carries is negligable. When my local representitive is made to pass laws based on the weight of his party's corporate bought platform, instead of by the dictates of his concience, my chit in the ballot box is even more worthless. Wake up.

        Realize that the freedoms you think you have under our system of democracy are phantasmagoria fabricated by those Elite who desire that the masses sleep. Corporations are Black Lodges who seek to make 'slaves of consumption' of us all.

        You are right that I seek to rise up and smash down those institutions who stand in the way of the Great Work of the Will. That is why I speak here. Not to argue the philosophic minutia and vagueries of Thelema, and play at doing the work of the Great white Brotherhood.

        I come to the desolation of these electronic wastelands to enlist my Brethern; to hunt out Kings with the courage to smash down the slave-mongerers...to join those who thunder out on their chargers, headlong, into the struggle. Raise your voices to the heavens, You who rally behind the War Standard of Ra HoorKuit; I shall hear you and join you, even if it means my destruction.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 06, @09:33PM
          I thought about trying to discuss cogently the benefits of corporations instead of painting them all with a giant and easy to understand brush of evil, or to examine the idea of the whole 'business way' mentioned Liber AL, or otherwise engage in meaningful dialogue.

          That, on further analysis, would have been a waste. In your rage, the only one controlled by anything resembling a black lodge is yourself, self-enslaved by the jingoism of the alternative culture.

          By all means, go forth and destroy. It's a lot easier than figuring out alternative methods proven to function in a global system, or to work slowly and steadily for progress within a system that when reasonably examined against the historical record is perhaps the finest edifice ever built.

          And if that day comes when you've killed your first corporate 'slave', I sincerely hope that you're not so far gone as to not reflect on what it is you've just done.


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 06, @11:28PM
            ...oh i don't know, pon reading this makes me
            want to shed huge crock tears,

            in nasal tone.."I sincerely hope that your not so far gone as to not reflect on what it is you've
            just done,"

            ...ya kinda brings CROCK tears to my eye..!

            i really am begining to feel for them pirate corps...after all at least they kill us with style
            where as in the fuedal system, well life span... zilch, na wa i me...?

            yes sir, i am going to go out and hug a tree killer today...hey go ahead and kill the whole goddamned rain forest today, ...lots of power lunch hugs, snif snif! in yr martini, yes sir
            really brings a (((Crock))) tear to my eye..!

            and a hearty 93 to you also, by golly, by gum..!

            p.s. lets nuke some dolphins too, that out to balance things out, ya that's the ticket to ride...!


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 07, @10:35AM
            ...the Kngs of the earth shall be Kings forever: the Slaves shall get defensive...


    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Tim Maroney on Thursday July 05, @01:12PM
    Thelema, a tradition uncompromisingly dedicated to liberty

    Uh, yeah. Uncompromisingly, just like Microsoft is uncompromisingly dedicated to quality, and Likud is uncompromisingly dedicated to peace.

    Every organization I've seen that was based on Crowley's work, with the possible exception of Cthonic-Auranian, has been authoritarian and antidemocratic. Seems like a pretty serious "compromise" on the old liberty thang there.

    Tim

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Aleph on Thursday July 05, @02:03PM
      Thanks, Tim. I was just going to make a similar comment, and you've saved me the effort.

      We are all Kings.

      93/696
      Aleph
      Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Mordecai on Thursday July 05, @03:26PM
        >We are all Kings.

        Most people seem to have abdicated.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by Aleph on Thursday July 05, @05:42PM
          There is help & hope in other spells. -- AL.II.70


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Mordecai on Thursday July 05, @09:54PM
            A fun site. I especially enjoyed the Secret King story. It sounds like something Grady might do; certainly something one of his initiates would do! I have a similar/totally-different story I'll email you privately.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Tim Maroney on Thursday July 05, @03:26PM
        You're welcome!

        Sorry, didn't mean to slight EGNU. I don't know much about its functioning as an actual organization, is all.

        Tim


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by Aleph on Thursday July 05, @04:41PM
          93,

          Actually, it hadn't crossed my mind that what you had said might be thought to apply to EGnU. Given that we have a hierarchy, we are much more anarchic than we seem. That is, Bishops, Priestesses, Priests, Templars, etc. do not exist to tell people what to do or not do or even how to do it, but rather to support what the Willed individuals in the Church want to do. Of course, to work within the organizational structure, one would have to find a sponsor who understands what one is trying to do or express. About the only place a true restriction could arise is that a Templar could disallow a particular Priestess/Priest pair from working in his or her Temple, but since we encourage the Templar to maintain such a Temple in their own home, they would naturally have that right anyway.

          93/696
          Aleph


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Cameron on Monday July 09, @06:34PM
        Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

        We are all Kings? It seems to me the majority of us are peasants, slaves to necessity. I think it takes a very exalted will to attain to the Kingly will proclaimed within the BOTL.


        Love is the law, love under will,
        Cameron


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by Aleph on Tuesday July 10, @01:21PM
          93,

          If you want to remain a slave to that kind of thinking, go right ahead. Will is naturally exalted. All one has to do is follow it. Will is concerned with making the next choice or decision, not with attempting to achieve some exaggerated vision of what one would like kingship to mean....

          93/696
          Aleph


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Mordecai on Wednesday July 11, @10:44PM
            >Will is concerned with making the next choice or decision, not with attempting
            >to achieve some exaggerated vision of what one would like kingship to mean....

            Unless of course your next choice is to attempt to achieve some exaggerated vision of what you would like kingship to mean!


    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Xnoubis on Thursday July 05, @03:42PM
      I was referring to the core message of Thelema, not the organizations that attempt to implement it. In retrospect, I could have chosen a better word than "tradition."

      From this view, groups that trample on the rights of individuals are, to that extent, Thelemic in name only.

      If we want to define Thelema by all those things that are called "Thelemic," I agree: it is composed almost entirely of compromise.


    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Shasu Ma'akheru on Thursday July 05, @05:46PM
      Democracy is not liberty. It is an organized form of mob rule in which the statistical majority can do anything it likes to everyone else. The only reason most modern democracies provide any liberty to their citizens is that the "democratic process" is solidly nailed down by doctrines of natural rights and entire branches of government whose sole purpose is to make change slow enough that outbursts of homocidal rage aren't translated into laws.

      The main reason some Thelemites, myself included, are anti-democratic is because we recognize that our own liberty is a statistical abberration that will inevitably vanish when the rest of these yahoos finally vote to end democracy. But until we have an acceptable substitute, I tend to support democracy as the least egregious of the available options. Democracy itself has no inherent value; it accrues whatever value it has from how well it fulfills the basically undemocratic goal of keeping the majority from trampling over the minority. So far, so good, it is true, but approximately two centuries out of a hundred centuries of human history is little cause for confidence.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 06, @02:36AM
        The statisitical majority weilds no real power in a state under the oppression of a partisan political structure. Any notion of individual determinism is illusory.

        But you are right in asserting the failure of democratic capitalism. The brainchild of free-market economics, Adam Smith, foresaw a system which would distribute wealth, and consequently freedom, more or less equally among society. This idea is only a few hundred years old, but has yet been unable to solve the question of individual liberty.

        As well with Marxism. While a noble idea, communism was doomed from it's inception by the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and by the lack of a truly equal capitalist mileau in which to ferment. The anarcho-syndaclists came closest of all to reconciling base man with true freedom, yet they lacked support. It is time for a new philosophy to solve these ills. We all know what I mean...


    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by nexist on Tuesday July 10, @08:10AM
      Actually, Thelema is not dedicated to Liberty, as it is commonly conceived. It is dedicated to the emancipation of the soul -- Spiritual Liberty. Further this liberty is enslavement. "thou hast no right but to do thy will" (AL I:42).

      Thou hast no right -- none, nothing but to do thy Will -- this fact is brought home even in OZ.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Jon Auviere on Tuesday July 10, @02:53PM
        Practice a 1000 times and it becomes difficult.

        Personally I liked the book more when no one was around to discuss what it meant! Also, I think no one hast the right to quote liber al bar AL himself. What do you think?


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by nexist on Tuesday July 10, @03:07PM
          As you will.

          "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt"

          I am secure enough to discern through the commentary & accept or reject on the perceived merits of each. Other peoples opinions do not frighten me; nor am I concerned that someone might argue against my interpretation.

          "The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading"

          "Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds."

          "The fool readeth this Book of the Law, and its comment; & he understandeth it not."

          As ye will


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Fra THA;M on Tuesday July 10, @03:03PM
        ...To move as he will...
        ...To talk as he will...
        ...To live as he will...

        When these rights are restricted, be they for political, economic, or social concerns, the Great Work of the Will is impeded. Remember, every act is inherently a magickal act. The emancipation of the soul is only one element. If one's emphasis is strictly focused on 'esoteric' pursuits, then an important element of the formula is being ignored. Remember, the primary injunction of the Great White Brotherhood is working towards the betterment of our fellow man. An emancipation of the soul is a difficult goal in a social structure where liberty is illusory...


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by nexist on Tuesday July 10, @03:16PM
          Actually, I agree. However, the Right to Move, Talk, Live, etc are already restricted by one's Will. Every right is restricted with 'as he will'. Thelema is only the Freedom to be truly yourself, to be totally 100% enslaved by your true self.

          You will do what you are meant to do or you will suffer the consequences.


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 11, @09:50AM
            Such is true until one reaches the penultimate crisis point in their magickal career, the obligations of the 7=4 Exempt Adept grade. Here one realizes the only course is to utterly devote themselves to the welfare of their fellow man, and consequently, conciously identify and align their Wills upon that path. The law of inertia will continue to push one into the abyss, so it becomes an imperative step that one works to elevate mankind (exepting those who withhold their blood from the cup of Babalon, and become Black Brothers).


            • Re: America and the Aeon
              by nexist on Wednesday July 11, @11:05AM
              It would still be true, in as much as anything is "True" or "False" at that point. It could easily be stated that such is 'as they will' & thus still under the original Freedom/Restriction.


              • Re: America and the Aeon
                by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 11, @11:22AM
                Are you identifying Will as a concious choice made by an autonomous individual, or as a imperative course of action that leads us to autonomy?

                In the case of the former, it could be argued that an action performed 'as they will' could be both restrictive and contrary to their True Will.

                In the case of the latter, it could be a choice to take a path of hardship but one that is recognized as the 'right' action to take.

                What we as individuals want to do 'as we will' often isn't what we should do 'as we will'. But I digress. I understand that Oz doesn't make this distinction, but I think it's implyed by it's numerous inclusions elsewhere in the Crowley corpus.


                • Re: America and the Aeon
                  by Nexist on Wednesday July 11, @11:29PM
                  In this case, Will is meant as the "True Will". Which I believe is the only way to read Oz without seeing it as a license for stupidity, decay and destruction.


                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                    by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 12, @11:02AM
                    Exactly. True Will is often contrary to the course of action we desire.


                    • Re: America and the Aeon
                      by nexist on Monday July 16, @08:36AM
                      We truly desire to do our Will. Ignorance & fear cload the mind so as to cause us to act contrary to our very nature.


    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Jon Auviere on Thursday July 05, @04:47PM
    It is funny you should pair thelema as a channel for "preserving" America's ideals, because I recount the very silence of the freemasons as the great factor leading to its downfall (were talking hundreds of years here). Thelema seems as analogous with this same silence- or if not, then postmodernist democratic bickering.

    Now is the time in the conquest of liberation to take up speechless action. The founding ideals can no longer be "preserved" because they've been dead a long time to now. Freedom used to mean "dying for a cause" and not dying at the hands of the enemy. Protests be cast down, debates be silent. Take up thy arms and march!

    IF however one is to live by the book of the law, then it is written that he shall fail as did Hitler fail - for whom the book was rightly designed.

    So let us not speak of the aeon, but of speechless and uncategorical action.

    _I now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast already in progress_

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 06, @12:50AM
      ..a excuse me, trickster here; would you be so kind so as to enlighten me further, prey tell,
      are you being sarcastic?...are you saying that if Hitler had embraced the book of the law that we all be eating der weener shnitzel now!

      cuz it seemes to me that, you are tring to force
      a kind of abstract reasoning out of the thelemic canon, as it were...

      my take is as conspiratorial as yours sir...!

      however i chose to see the dark side of things!!!

      i don't see any progress at all, just the same ol regress...

      perhaps we should redress the issue..?!

      ah! the art of NOT using sarcasm for sarcasm's sake...a very tricky reconstruction of deconstructionism...

      and on that note, i do believe since the advent
      of the internet, sarcasm is on the rise...!

      but as a practicing thelemic pataphysician
      i have had a lot of practice at this sort of thing,
      and i can tell you that it has become obvious to me that, karma is speeding up, there is a kind of phenomona that is happening with the WWW
      that precipitates an influx of concatenating
      synchronicity, a gushing momentum of force
      that permeates the guagmire of forum exchanges
      that parallels certain predictions in the B of the L...Crowley did see down the time lines, and
      perhaps what he saw wasn't pretty, but his channeled words sure were...bet on it!

      93 as always, die hard, fuck soft!


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 06, @02:13AM
        Testify Brother!

        Testify!

        DJ Jazzy Jazzcat is always droppin the Ubu Roi
        PataMeta Jarry bombs.

        Twistify! The rabble is restless, and their potential very scary...


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by Aleph on Friday July 06, @07:46AM
          Rabelais, Brother!

          Rabelais!

          An end of the word of "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, then baffle 'em with Baphomet."

          Mystify! The kings have arisen...


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 06, @11:47PM
          ...ya ya ya, I come in thy Thelemic name, in the name of Ra hoor Koot, Come to testify, gather round, DJ jAZZYKAT, Da KAT of the KU-IT,
          come to blow ma SAX Sax Sax of triumpth!..come to blow
          yo minds, come to preach the praxis of pan...!

          HIDI HIDI HI, HIDI HIDI HO warrior!

          like my Bro say BEbop or BE dead!!!

          D fo THe D...the ReVoLuTiOn WILL, not be on Tv

          Nothing is true, everything is permited!

          therefore do thy tru WILL..

          I come in the name of the pipes o pan, jajouka

          apacalypsy across the sky....!!!chaos chaos chaos
          ya in his name of CHAOS...Lord of life, love liberty and light...93 93 93 ya ninty three,

          Jazzcat 217 holy holy holy HO


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 07, @03:31PM
            I just love this Guy, Love Under Will.


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Jon Auviere on Friday July 06, @07:44AM
        Mr. Jazzcat, when you end this negative refusal pattern and finally come to your senses maybe I will discuss with you what you wish. But I see no fain treat in weeding through ad nauseum this land of non sequitur in which you live, and to oppugn the plethora of such words.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 06, @05:20PM
          an invitation?...na!

          your just baiting me
          cuz , your education
          is so much more evolved!

          snicker, snicker!


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 06, @07:13PM
            ...i have to admit that non sequiturs, thang
            is a full frontal assult, on your jerremiad
            loquaciousness, pluss its got that (NON) hidden meaning going for it, but compounded with:
            "oppugn(love that word)! plethora( we need more of this)...SUCH WORDS!!

            suchly muchly so...!

            and you really don't invoke panjandrums, in my dharma bum musings...!
            '
            do you know that 'Jackel' derives from 'Shagal'
            i did not know that!!!

            you learn something nu everyday...non on the nonce...:)

            yes, we must need be more logical!...by decree of...?
            by degree of some lawyer in the Vat-i-can...***

            Love is the Law!...no logic here!
            under will, still no need of logic!
            no logic up my sleeve, but an Aeon card! no bluff!!..no seduction ov your deductive mind!!!

            shall we haggle over the Hagis?...

            jazzcat, layen the rebop down beat, with a thelemic twist!
            Hidi Hidi HO!!!


    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Cameron on Monday July 09, @06:08PM
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

    From what I understand the American revolution had little to do with liberty in the moral sense and more to do with tax relief for colonial merchants, in fact "life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness" was originally "life, liberty and private ownership". "No taxation without representation" gave rise to the revolt against the Stamp Act which paved the way for the American Revolution as American merchants could not afford such taxes, but even Benjamin Franklin recognized that if the American colonies were to remain dependant upon British military aid such taxes would be a necessity.


    Love is the law, love under will,
    Cameron

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Jon Auviere on Tuesday July 10, @07:02AM
      I'm inclined to believe that there were many factors present that made the revolutionaries desire moral freedom. History shows however that it takes something like money to actually provide an excuse to start the war.


    Re: America and the Aeon
    by Lee on Wednesday July 11, @11:45PM
    Ok. When did all the Thelemites go out and become raving communists?

    For those of you who voted for Comrade Ralph Nader, I'll keep this simple.

    Point One. Modern Liberalism has nothing whatsoever to do with Liberty or individual freedom. It is simply cultural Marxism in the guise of Liberty. Liberalism, as espoused by the Democratic Party, Hollywood celebrity socialists, the Greens and the so called "multiculturalists", is a totalitarian ideology. It has no room for tolerance in any genuine sense, but is dedicated to forcing itself upon anyone who disagrees or chooses to live differently to it's ever growing code of political correctness. It not only closely resembles the totalitarian ideology in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it uses similar styles of brainwashing, in the guise of "new age therapy" and "sensitivity training" to acheive it's ends.

    Point Two. America is in far better shape than Liberals claim, in fact in many respects, we are in the best shape we have been since the 70's. The view that democracy in America is dead is hogwash. I see a huge amount of political activity at the local level all around the country. There is certanly room for reform, dropping the Electoral College and electing the President by direct popular vote would be a start. But by and large the "democratic crises" in America is a myth designed by Liberals to frighten the horses. As for those, such as Gore Vidal, who whine and complain about the so called "National Security State", this suggests to me that these people would not have engaged the U.S in the necessary war against Communism that only America could fight (and that is far from over). I therefore assume that there whining has nothing to do with a concern for true Liberty but is in reality a combination of socialist beliefs and the currently fashionable anti-Americanism that Liberals. Europeans, and some desert dwellers substitute for serious political thought.

    Final Point. About the so-called "anti-globalist" protesters. One image I noticed at the Gothenburg protest spoke volumes. A bunch of the "protesters" were smashing the windows and vandalising the interiors of various businesses up and down the street. Many of them were carying red flags with pictures of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and other compassionate,tolerant and freedom loving figures from history. One lone shopkeeper decided to try to protect his livelyhood from these thugs, and was viciously beaten to the ground and then kicked. This is the true face of the anti-globalisation movement. It is nothing more than the same Marxist, totalitarian ideology we have seen in Soviet Russia and today in China. Personally, I would love for the people to try one of their protests in Beijing, North Korea, or Vietnam and see how far they get.

    Pax Americana!

    The Musuem of Communism. http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/musframe.htm

    MarxWatch.
    http://www.marxwatch.com/

    Generation X Rightwing.
    http://www.genxright.com/

    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Xnoubis on Thursday July 12, @10:33AM
      > When did all the Thelemites go out and become
      > raving communists?

      Boris: Hoo-boy! I tink we haff control over all ze Telemites now!

      Natasha: Boris darlink! Fearless leader will make us heros for sure this time! Maybe ticker-tape parade?


    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 12, @10:58AM
      I'm not an American, but have experience with war-mongering hypocrites from all creeds.

      "this suggests to me that these people would not have engaged the U.S in the necessary war against Communism that only America could fight (and that is far from over)."

      How can you insert this vulgar line in the same crazed summation where you write,

      "...the so called "multiculturalists", is a totalitarian ideology. It has no room for tolerance in any genuine sense, but is dedicated to forcing itself upon anyone who disagrees or chooses to live differently to it's ever growing code of political correctness. It not only closely resembles the totalitarian ideology in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four it uses similar styles of brainwashing..."

      But apart from illustrating the hypocrisy bred from your nationalism, my Ideagogue friend, let me inform you regarding some pertinent points. I am not a Marxist, but it is plainly evident to anyone with the smallest iota of erudition and learning that the political manifestations found in China, Korea, at one time in the Soviet Union were communist in name only. It is closer to a Red Capitalism, where the state rather than the working class owns the means of production and reaps the economic benefit. Had you read on this subject before relying on empty rhetoric, this would have been evident.

      Globalization is testament to the triumph of the human species. It has the potential of being the most important step in human evolution. What is worriesome to individuals like myself is that simple minded people, fed on rhetoric and led by demagogues, are in the process of relinquishing legal controls to institutions who fail to have the best interest of people at heart; institutions whose bottom line is economic dominance.

      You have the audacity to give an example of social activists running amuck? Read your history book. Right-wing nationalists have a far more stellar track record when it comes to abuses of civil liberty Mr. McCarthy. Loved your hate-mongering links. ...The slaves shall serve...


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 12, @11:15AM
        Am I alone in my desire as a Thelemite, an 'exempt adept' and a lover of humanity, in veiwing the Great Work as not merely an personal esoteric pursuit, but an exoteric goal? WO WO WO! Frater ThA;M wanders alone and foresaken...the ashes of a thousand smoldering souls staining his bare and travelworn feet; his threadbare mantle is pulled tight around him while the world he loves spits upon, jeers, and utterly reviles him...


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by nexist on Thursday July 12, @11:45AM
          I view the "Great Work" as both Esoteric & Exoteric (though I believe the division to be misleading -- they are related, a mirror & image)

          However, I both agree & disagree with both you and Lee.

          Multiculturalism, as practiced, prevents integration & thus divisive. "Uniculturalism" (as it was practiced) involves the absorption of (hopefully) interesting, useful and creative elements from other cultures into the dominant, thus allowing and propmoting growth & discovery. Multiculturalism keeps them seperate & at odds, an ideological xenophobia which leads to stasis & death.

          On the other hand, and actually consonant with my views on 'Culturalism' is that Globalism is just plain wrong. Multiculturalism keeps us divided, but in order for the global hegemony to exist, each unit must be reduced to its base elements when interacting with another -- all the easier for the Techno/Plutocratic elements to further exploit the divided little groups who have been lessened so as to co-exist. I realize that this paragraph is poorly formed & reminiscent of stock '80's punk diatribe, & for that I apologize, but I don't have the time to finish it right now.

          Sorry.


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 12, @12:11PM
            I veiwe the push towards globalization more in terms of a larger homogeneous community, advocating an environment where everyone has the opportunity to push for interdependant autonomy. Quite different than ideas of a global market.


            • Re: America and the Aeon
              by nexist on Thursday July 12, @12:21PM
              You might, but I do not believe that you are in charge of the Globalization initiative.

              Further, name one Hedgemony that wasn't a dictatorship by the 3rd generation?


              • Re: America and the Aeon
                by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 12, @08:37PM
                I am in charge of globalization...not as an individual, but as an informed member of a country playing a leading role. Myself, and others who take the initiative to attempt to shape the global village into a place of concienceous individualism, in alignment with the the word of the aeon. We all have the opportunity to play a part in the course of human history; unless one would rather withdraw into themselves, play at magick, and let others design the world for them. Why you bring up hegemonies, I am unsure. Hegemonies are the opposite of what I and my brethern hunger for. Diametrically opposite. Hegemonies advocate the rule of a single state, ideaology or individual(s). How utterly repellent. What an anethema to Thelema.


                • Re: America and the Aeon
                  by nexist on Friday July 13, @12:57PM
                  Globalization is Hegemony.

                  Sure, you are attempting to make the Hegemony amicable to Thelema, but I have reservations about your ability to do such. A Thelemic Dictatorship may be fine -- if it is possible. Unfortuantely, Thelemites are a minority -- especially Thelemites who truly and fully support Ideologies contrary to their own.

                  I reject the idea of the Global Village as merely placing a smiley face on Domination. A Global Village is a Hegemony, one government, one culture, one set of imposed values.

                  I would much rather have a globe of Villages than the Global Village anyday. If I dislike one village, I can then move to the next. Freedom & Diversity cannot exist under globalization/Global Village/Hegemony. The best one can hope for is that one's own uniqueness conforms enough to what is allowed.


                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                    by Xnoubis on Friday July 13, @01:22PM
                    > I would much rather have a globe of Villages
                    > than the Global Village anyday.

                    If we envision a globe of villages with some way to constrain one village from oppressing those around it, we have a model for a globalization that is not hegemony.


                    • Re: America and the Aeon
                      by Nexist on Saturday July 14, @06:59PM
                      That is true. The only freedoms I see are those of free association. The individual can leave whenever they want. Further, the group also has the right to disassociate anyone it wants.

                      The details are far from worked out (property, territory, & the like) as is inter-tribal/village relations.


                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                    by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @02:55PM
                    Global Village, Globe of Villages? Quit arguing semantics buddy. Both in essence recognize a world that, through technological advances and increasing dialogue, is making it difficult for nations and states not to play roles on the world stage. And Thelema, it isn't merely a theology, or philosophy. One can be a thelemite having never heard of Lister Crowley. Its a zietgeist, the spirit of the age. A period of humanity's awareness of itself. It was birthed by the advances of modernism, moulded in the doubt of post-modernism, and is currently being shaped in the dynamism of our post-industrial world. It makes sense from a pragmatic point of veiwe.


                    • Re: America and the Aeon
                      by Nexist on Saturday July 14, @07:06PM
                      I'm not. A Global Village has one set of mores, one set of customs and one culture. Any not conforming must be eliminated or converted.

                      A Globe of Villages has multiplicity of customs, beliefs & ways of life.

                      Imagine if we took all plants and repleced them with one genetically modified strain that could provide lumber, food & oxygen. Any species uynable to subsist on this new plant would become extinct. Evolution would thus become constrained around this one plant & diversity, wonder & growth would be slowed or eliminated.

                      Differences are natural & to be encouraged, they form the basis of both cooperation & competition -- and these provide the impetus for the biological, intellectual and spiritual growth of the human species (& most likely the entire planet).


                      • Re: America and the Aeon
                        by Fra THA;M on Sunday July 15, @12:43PM
                        How do you conclude, a priori, that the concept of the global village necessitates a single ideology? I know that in the 'village' (actually city) in which I live, people of all creeds and colours live in a cooperative atmosphere. I have friends that go to a Sihk temple, friends that go to Mosque; I have Pagan associates, Socialist cohorts, hell...I even have a dear friend of the Fundamentalist christian persuation (though I am always tring to save her soul heehee). This is a microcosm of the best parts of our 'village' nation as a whole. And a model for a workable global village. I think we are arguing for the same thing, using different terminologies. C'est La Vie. As brothers fight ye...


                        • Re: America and the Aeon
                          by nexist on Monday July 16, @08:35AM
                          You live in a city, not a village. A City is a collection of neighborhoods & districts (villages). Then again, most of Western Civ is dissonate & there are no true villages anywhere.

                          However, to the extent that our fractured social psyche can work, our villages will permit some variation -- especially if that is a defining characteristic of the village. However, even these variations are only permitted in as much as they do not truly disturb the Status Quo.

                          Besides, it isn't the behavior prior to the revolution that one has to worry about.


                          • Re: America and the Aeon
                            by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @02:51PM
                            When I become King of the Universe, I am going to have you and your ilk marched out of your village, lined up against the village wall, and shot. Ha ha Ha (insane laughter).


                            • Re: America and the Aeon
                              by nexist on Monday July 16, @03:10PM
                              Precisely the problem with globalization as it is being implemented.


                              • Re: America and the Aeon
                                by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:40PM
                                Forgetting my previous joke, I will end my discourse on this thread by saying we hunger after the same thing. The vernacular I employ differs from yours, but what it denotes is the same. Since you don't care about dialogue, only about arguing insipid, peurile points, You have failed to see this.


                                • Re: America and the Aeon
                                  by Nexist on Monday July 16, @06:45PM
                                  & you forget that sometimes there is actually more to an arguement than a semantic difference.

                                  While I admit that the advertising for the New WOrld Order (or whatever the new advertising slogan is nowadays) claims to provide us with increased freedom, it is in fact the method of enslavement. Bread and Circuses for the docile participants in the new World Empire & its Pax Romana.

                                  C'est la vie


                                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                                    by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @10:32AM
                                    A Pax Americana is more like it.


                                    • Re: America and the Aeon
                                      by Nexist on Thursday July 19, @04:02PM
                                      While the US forgets this, it is not "America".

                                      While the US would prefer it, the UN is still not a mere pawn for its whims (though it is close).

                                      Despite the anti US rhetoric, you fail to address my points.

                                      It doesn't really matter to me who is control of my life, if it isn't me.


                                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                                    by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @10:33AM
                                    A Pax Americana is more like it.


    • Re: America and the Aeon
      by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Thursday July 12, @04:53PM
      ...let me see liberals, wine
      and ultra right wingers dine on yo bones..!

      i got a jones, yes i do, i got a see though
      your phony, propaganda, lies, and hate language
      tone, mindfunk, Kontrol, a few people smash department store wondows, and by golly, bring in the
      agitaters, prepayed by the dud-ly do-right-wing
      professional shit stirers, and what to you get,
      voila, full blown pepperspry nightstick fest,
      all conjered up by yours truly, where do these
      piss antys come out of the woodwork...!?

      my my, shit in yo eye, its like it always was
      juzz a lot of shitstorm mind death, ooz enought
      hate speach, and suddenly hate mongers become heros..!all dressed in fancy uniforms, oh yes
      these fancy snapy uniforms, makes some tostesterone
      dudes pretty dapper, and they ever got Ed-u-cations, hmmm they took brainwash eck, mindfunk
      Knotrol, a psych class 333, they got, History
      Revision 101, yes sir...

      ( I really likes Gores's 'Creation') so stuff it
      dapper dude!!!

      jazzcat, singing the thelemic song of myself!
      o yez o yez oyez...93 skip to my lu


      • Re: America and the Aeon
        by Martin Hettland on Friday July 13, @07:04AM
        I remember asking you in another thread if you
        belived in a conspiracy involving the Catholic Curch and the Masons.
        Your answer to that question I interpreted to be no.
        But earlier in this thread you write that: "my take is as conspiratorial as yours sir...! however i chose to see the dark side of things!!!"

        Will you tell something more about who that is the powers behind this conspiracy you seem to beleieve in?
        And what is this dark side of things that you chose to see?

        Reagards: Martin Hettland.


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @10:53AM
          Uh Oh...I'm afraid the Jazzcat might be the antichrist in a quasi-masonic incarnation...


        • Re: America and the Aeon
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Saturday July 14, @12:00AM
          ...good questions, Martin!...but do five cent cigar answer, or do want the champagne and caviar
          answer...?

          think hard upon YOUR answer!!!
          your life may depend on it, the key worf here being; MAY.

          ...So, shall we review your question?...hmmmm
          the Catholic/Mason, one...which was (your) interpretation...was, NO!

          no to what exactly?...that the Catholic church of Rome, represents everything reactionary, and the
          Templars, that eventualy became Masons, represent
          everything progressive and thats why we have any sort of modicum of Democracy, and or free thinking
          or hermeticism, or renaissance of thought, science of the soul, that comes down to us from Egypt, that
          eventualy becomes Crowley's version, ect.
          this would indeed appear to be the case, because
          The Pope is still in Rome, and i don't see any change in the Dogma of Rome Catholic thinking, but
          of course History has a way of playing a game of shadows with facts and fiction, and unless you can invent some sort of time machine, i don't suppose we will ever know the full truth, of the conspirasy to think for your self,

          So that brings me to the other part of your two pronged, inquirey...the statement i made to that
          stalwart fellow above,..."my take is conspiratorial as yours sir...! however i chose to
          see the dark side of things!!!"

          ...well, i was ingaging in my usual black humor
          that attempts to shed light on a situation, by
          exposing the absurd implacations inherent in
          pretending to know something that is just too complex of an prognosis, and to sit back and pretend that you have some sort of initiated
          secret circle insight that you are privy too,
          because you are implying that you are the one privy to such and such, or that your formal education equips you with some sort of social
          historic knowledge simply because of your social
          status, which allows you sit back and imply that your form of knowing is THE only from of knowing,
          ie. that if i use nonsequiters, that somehow i am
          imgaging in an obviously substanderd, and therefore socialy unexceptable method to derive any said knowledge or given so-called "facts"
          in any given historical situation, therefore i
          hold up a kind of mirror of riddle to such a
          self-important individual...!

          does that adress your question?..eh?

          thanks for asking...jazzcat


          • Re: America and the Aeon
            by Martin Hettland on Saturday July 14, @12:54PM
            Greetings jazzcat goodshiplollypop.

            Yes, that does adress my question.
            ...and thanks for answering.

            Since there have been some interest in the freemasons on this site-and in connection with the first part of your answer-I here give from all of me to all of you some links to som liberal masons of non-dogmatic obedience:

            The Great Orient of Switezerland
            http://www.g-o-s.ch/index-en.htm
            contact@g-o-s.ch

            Grand Orient De France
            http://www.godf.org/english/index-le.htm
            webmaster@godf.org

            Grand Orient of Belgium
            MrGOB Rue de Laeken, 79
            1000 BRUXELLES.

            As to the second part of your answer it makes me remember a book by Burton L. Mack titled "Q The lost Gospel", where the "real" historical Jesus is describes as having been a sage inspired by the Greek Cynic philosophers of his time.
            I remeber this book beacuse of the ending lines of your text above: "...,therefore i hold up a kind of mirror of riddle to such a selfimportant person...!"
            This is exactly what a Cynic at the time of Jesus would have done.
            So I beg to differ with the one in this thread comparing you with some kind of antichrist.

            Regards: Martin Hettland.


            • Re: America and the Aeon
              by Fra THA;M on Sunday July 15, @02:32PM
              My comment was supposed to equal parts humor and allegory. The Thelemic discipline abounds in apocalyptic imagery; the antichrist becomes an important archetype (see Nietzsches book entitled the same). Thelemites are all antichrists in as much as the invocation of such symbols liberates them from shame, guilt and doubt. As the OTO is a quasi-masonic organization, and Thelemites are 'antichrists', I was making an attempt at witticism. I guess it failed.


              • Re: America and the Aeon
                by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Monday July 16, @03:04AM
                ..i like what you said, your wit was well taken,
                and i am not afraid to fail, i am concerned that
                my commitment, my oath if you will, is not in vain...so i do what i can with what i have, i do my true will and all else must follow, and that kind of goes in a cycle, cuz it follows itself around like a serpent eating its own tail...


                • Re: America and the Aeon
                  by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:45PM
                  Mr.Jazzcat.
                  Continue to aspire to heavens,
                  And I'll meet you in hell,
                  When the Day is through. Sacre Bleau!
                  You Rock, Man!


              • Re: America and the Aeon
                by Martin Hettland on Thursday July 19, @07:27AM
                Thankyou for your reply.

                As for Thelemites being antichrists this might have been a different case with Crowley himself.

                In the poem "Ascension day" written in 1901( dedicated to Bennet)and published in 1904 in the verse and essay volume "The Sword of Song"(subtitled "The Book of the Beast), Crowley takes care to specify that it is the husk of exoteric dogma in Christianity(and all organized religions)that earns his hatred, and not the mystical teachings of Christ:

                "But why revile"
                (You urge me)"in that vicious style The very faith whose thruths you seem(Elsewhere)to hold, to hymn supreme
                In your own soul?" Perhaps you know
                How mystic doctrines melt the snow
                On ant faith:reddem it to
                A fountain of reviving dew.
                So I with Christ:but few receive
                The Qabalistic Balm, believe
                Nothing-and choose to know instead.
                But, to that terror vague and dread,
                External worship;all my life-
                War to the knife! war to the knife!
                (Extract from page 96 in the Crowley biography "Do What Thou Wilt" by Lawrence Sutin).
                In connection with this I will mention that Crowley seems to have denied that Jesus was a genuine historical person(one can read more about this on page 259 in the mentioned biography).

                Regards: Martin Hettland.


                • Re: America and the Aeon
                  by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @04:28PM
                  Do What Thou Wilt Is The Whole Of Thew Law.

                  A wonderful and succinct reference, Brother. I have the profoundest respect for Christ as a mytho-historic teacher; but not as a the demiurge of an opressive institutionalized religion. I think the Christ Crowley hated was the dogmatic one used to repress the rights and sexuality of individuals. Not so much an actual figure, but a symbol.

                  How was the Sutin biography? Of the few biographies I've read about Crowley, Sutin's is not one of them.

                  Love Is The Law, Love Under Will.


                  • Re: America and the Aeon
                    by Martin Hettland on Sunday July 22, @01:34PM
                    Greetings.

                    I have only read two Crowley boigraphies, and to me the Sutin one was the best of them.
                    The other biography is "A Magick Life-A Biography of Aleister Crowley." by: Martin Booth.

                    Both books have been written in cooperation with Hyemnaeus Beta.

                    Regards: Martin Hettland.


            • Re: America and the Aeon
              by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Monday July 16, @03:10AM
              ...Martin , thankyou for your thoughtful response,
              i have heard of Q, thank Q

              Regards: jazzcat (Craig)



     
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