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  Real Dangers of the Occult
Magick Posted by Xnoubis on July 13, 2001 @ 10:10 AM
from the prophet-and-loss dept.

There was a recent exchange on the Teen Witchcraft and Religion thread that could use further exploration.

The anonymous poster known as "me" (not me!) addressed the Reverend Rob, saying: "There is nothing so dangerous in the path as you seem to imply any more than there is risk of a falling bull on your local street."

To which he replied, "After watching a decade of burnouts, insanity, drug addiction, violence, and more in the mystical community, I'd beg to differ."

How dangerous is the path? Can it be made safer? If so, should it?


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    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Aleph on Friday July 13, @10:36AM
    burnouts, insanity, drug addiction, violence and more in the mystical community

    First, one would have to answer the question, are the problems mentioned statistically more frequent in the "mystical community" than in the general population (in the area of the observer)?

    Further questions suggest themselves:

    How is the "mystical community" defined? Who does it include? Who might it exclude?

    Is it possible that the allegedly observed problems are primarily due to the unintelligent use of drugs rather than to "mysticism" itself? If we exclude drug misuers from the "mystical community", would the observation still hold?

    Should drug misusers who label themselves "mystics" in denial of their drug problem be included as members of the "mystical community" for the purposes of this comparison?

    Finally, what role do organizations which initiate, but which do not teach or even test the understanding and abilities of their initiates before advancing them play in this alleged problem?

    93 93/93
    Aleph

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 13, @06:27PM
      First, one would have to answer the question, are the problems mentioned statistically more frequent in the "mystical community" than in the general population (in the area of the observer)?

      Based on an unscientific examination, at least in this case, a resounding yes.

      Further questions suggest themselves:
      How is the "mystical community" defined? Who does it include? Who might it exclude?


      I'd personally use the rough categories for submission to AvatarSearch, sans the vampire & UFO/conspiracy theory sites, to get a working picture.

      Is it possible that the allegedly observed problems are primarily due to the unintelligent use of drugs rather than to "mysticism" itself?

      It may well be. However, when you start dealing with Thelema's whole attachment to drugs, at least in this subculture it becomes far more difficult to separate.

      If we exclude drug misuers from the "mystical community", would the observation still hold?

      Here we'd have to define what a drug misuser is. Gods, I feel pointlessly Socratic today.

      Should drug misusers who label themselves "mystics" in denial of their drug problem be included as members of the "mystical community" for the purposes of this comparison?

      Here I'd have to say it depends both on the definition and whether the drug abuse plays a role in the mysticism of the individual as they understand it.

      Finally, what role do organizations which initiate, but which do not teach or even test the understanding and abilities of their initiates before advancing them play in this alleged problem?

      It depends on what the organizations you're alluding to are, their alleged role, and other factors.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @10:44AM
    Physical dangers...The dangers for the credulous, naive, and weak of character abound; not from any 'esoteric' sources, but from those brothers and sisters of the left-hand path who exploit individuals for private agendas. Using the same pragmatic approach in magick that one would use in business, health, etc. is the best defensive measure.

    As for 'burnouts, insanity, drug addiction', I intimately encountered all of these in my late adolescence. Now I am (relatively) balanced, well adjusted, and (relatively) sober. But the magnitude of my ordeals, and my overcoming of them, provided the most profound of lessons in magick. Without dangers, the Path would lack any transformative power; and, unfortunately, the rigours of the path does on occassion shatter fragile brothers and sisters.

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Xnoubis on Friday July 13, @01:07PM
      > unfortunately, the rigours of the path does on
      > occassion shatter fragile brothers and sisters.

      I've certainly known people that's happened to. I can't help but wonder, though, if this points to gaps in our knowledge about transformation. I agree that the heat has to be turned up, but I suspect that other traditions have ways of evaluating readiness before placing aspirants at risk.

      > those brothers and sisters of the left-hand
      > path who exploit individuals for private agendas

      I don't know if I'm prepared to swing the "left-hand path" label around just yet, but I certainly see this as one of the main dangers. Bullying seems pervasive in almost all of my experiences of Thelemic community. And someone who wishes to bully can easily interpret Thelemic writings to support it. "If I can bully and get away with it, then success is my proof." That's rather like Jehovah's answer to Job, so there's a precedent, but still...


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 13, @06:31PM
        I can't help but wonder, though, if this points to gaps in our knowledge about transformation. I agree that the heat has to be turned up, but I suspect that other traditions have ways of evaluating readiness before placing aspirants at risk.

        I don't think any particular scale or guide will be ultimately effective; the biggest moment of shatter I've had mentioned to me by friends and colleagues is for those who subconsciously one way or another don't actually believe that this shit actually works, and when confronted with personal evidence of it, fail to compensate or adapt.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Osculam Infernum on Friday July 13, @06:40PM
          The moment of shattering for those who beleive that this shit works comes when they realize nothing happens...nothing that can't be explained beautifully by philosophy, science, psychology and history. The efficacy of these models is in their more succinct symbolism.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @10:09PM
        "Bullying seems pervasive in almost all of my experiences of Thelemic community"

        While often I bemoan my solitude, shake my fist at the heavens and bellow my frustrations at my isolation...perhaps my lack of community lends me strength. Perhaps the Hermits path can teach me lessons unattainable in a supportive fraternal environment. Perhaps perhaps perhaps...Dog make it so.


    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Aleph on Friday July 13, @01:29PM
      brothers and sisters of the left-hand path who exploit individuals for private agenda

      93,

      I must object to this misuse of the term left-hand path. The term is derived from the Sanskrit tantric term Vamamarg, which merely indicates that the practice in question utilizes actual rather than symbolic sacraments. That is, meat, fish, alcohol, sex, etc. are actually used in the left-hand path rather than symbolic substitutes.

      In accordance with the proper usage of the term, Liber AL appears to advocate the left-hand path. If you mean "Black Brothers" or "Evil Magicians", please be explicit rather than misuse a term and thereby potentially offend practitioners of Vamamarg, as well as mislead those who are unaware of this distinction.

      93/696
      Aleph


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @02:41PM
        I was employing it as a term of convinience. It is a common beleif in numerous cultures that Left is associated with malevolence. I offer a curt sorry. Black Brothers then...wait, I am sorry to people of differing ethnicities that take offense to the label black. Let me clarify, members of the Black Lodge...uh oh, sorry to my Cree brethren, and other indigenous peoples who use black lodge symbolism. Evil magicians then...wait, I take offense. My religion doesn't beleive in absolutes. My my, what a conundrum. Quit whining.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Aleph on Friday July 13, @02:46PM
          How about "malevolent persons"?


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @02:56PM
            OK. Sorry.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Xnoubis on Friday July 13, @03:15PM
            I prefer the Gurdjieffian term, "Hasnamuss," myself.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Fra THA;M on Friday July 13, @03:21PM
            I just can't do it, sorry. Many the descriptive terms I use have been chosen for personal aesthetic purposes. I shall continue to use them, but recognize I intend no insult directed at you (it is just an unfortunate by-product). No one ever accused me of political correctness.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Jon Auviere on Saturday July 14, @08:03AM
            Heh, sorry. Left-hand path is the path of the black brothers; it is not supposed to be a nice description. If you don't like the terminology, then get out of the Thelemic tradition.


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Parlertriks on Saturday July 14, @12:01PM
              Thelemic terminology, love it or leave it!


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Aleph on Saturday July 14, @10:09PM
              93,

              Hmmm.... I don't see 'left-hand path' anywhere in Liber AL. So it would appear to be part of the old baggage, rather than part of the Thelemic tradition. Or were you planning on keeping all the bogus accretions of the Aeon of Osiris?

              93/696
              Aleph


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Tim Maroney on Sunday July 15, @01:59PM
                And who cares if it's part of "Thelemic tradition" -- which simply means that Crowley used the term -- if it's mistaken and offensive?

                Tim


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Fra THA;M on Sunday July 15, @06:36PM
                  ...if he be King, thou cans't not hurt him...Perhaps oversensitivity is a gauge to measure one's strength of conviction. A complete abscence of concern for the opinions and words, beyond constructive debate, of others is a sign of internal fortitude.


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Aleph on Monday July 16, @09:09AM
                    93,

                    You're assuming that I'm objecting due to personal sensitivity. That is incorrect. I'm a linguist - if someone is using a term incorrectly, I'm going to let them know. I am also going to point out that misusing the term in such a way might possibly offend practitioners of the path (as well as left-handed people) is additional information that a reasonable person might take into account.

                    If you're going to cop an attitude about it, then I guess you also have no objection to those who mislabel 'Thelemites' as 'Satanists'. These folks have the same excuse - it is part of their tradition to label all non-Xist religions 'Satanic'.

                    Not so much better than them, are you?

                    93/696
                    Aleph


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:09PM
                      I will concede that sometimes the mislabeling of my Thelemic discipline bothers me. I respect your dedication to language, I too attempt to be a cunning linguist. As to those left handed people...I don't trust 'em one bit...


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Aleph on Monday July 16, @07:29PM
                        Well said, Brother. I respect your continuing to discuss it reasonably. No need to take it personally, as it wasn't meant that way...

                        Tally ho!


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Jon Auviere on Monday July 16, @08:01AM
                  Because.
                  Unlike some of you there are in actuality True Thelemites. If we let everyone change the definitions of words and the culture that it houses then it most surely will spread like a disease, like xtianity, and by result restrict or destroy the true tradition for those newly interested chaps who catch on to this straying and irrational behavior. In short those who find the terms offensive are the ones in desire of changing them. They best piss on off. But to all it will seem beautiful. Those who deny are merely liars.

                  You may also find this hard to believe, but there are those who actually like Crowley and are perfectly sane themselves. These people don't spend hours reproaching and doubting Thelema or the words written by its Founder. Hard to believe...!


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Aleph on Monday July 16, @09:17AM
                    93,

                    I wouldn't call such a person a 'True Thelemite', I'd call them a 'Crowleyite'. You're even quoting the Book of the Law to justify Crowley's foibles. Those words in the BoL are referring to the BoL and nothing else. You appear to be misusing them.

                    If Crowley misused a term, he misused a term. As you say, if we let someone do this, it will spread like a disease. You appear to be one of the infected. I am trying to point out the misuse, and the proper meaning of the word.

                    Crowley used various racial epithets in his writing, are you implying that to be a 'True Thelemite' one has to use them as well.

                    Don't be ridiculous...

                    93/696
                    Aleph


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Jon Auviere on Monday July 16, @10:12AM
                      [In the Shells]


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Aleph on Monday July 16, @12:53PM
                        93 all,

                        I think we've just identified one of the Real Dangers of the Occult [tm]! ;-)

                        I don't know what anyone else thinks about this, but my understanding of the Comment's use of the phrase each for himself is that it was intended to prevent one person from attempting to force their interpretation (of Liber AL) on others.

                        93 93/93
                        Aleph

                        There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason. -- AL.II.27


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:35PM
                        You seem to be a Slave to your Emotions, Brother. When one can't refine their animal passions, It is usually a sign of profound weakness. Don't get me wrong, I delight in people such as yourself, for who would serve?

                        The Kings of the Earth shall be Kings Forever...
                        ...The Slaves shall....


                        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                          by Jon Auviere on Wednesday July 18, @07:47AM
                          That is a low blow, now innit?

                          You seem to be unaware of my state when the above was written; but lest there is folly, I'd rather control my emotions as a tool than to not feel at all, nor comprehendeth the mysteries of the universe. [insert AL quote here]


                          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                            by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 18, @07:27PM
                            Honestly, I was doing nothing but trying to provoke you into another diatribe so I could listen to your poetry of profanity, such as I saw in the Shells. Do what thou wilt...


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Aleph on Monday July 16, @01:19PM
                      s/quoting/misquoting/


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Kala Devi on Sunday July 15, @08:39AM
        Thank you, Aleph. However, I for one (a practitioner of Vamamarg) have ceased to be attached to being offended by the Stephen Flowers propogation of the term in Western occultism. It simply is. BTW, Vamamarg also means "path of the Divine Mother."

        As for the use of the particular substances (taboo in Hindu Brahmin society) you refer to (the pancamakaras)... non-efficacious in either the West or the East. Those substances are not taboo in our society and, the Brahmins who perform the rite of pancamakaras in secrecy in India use Chandalis for the rite, then treat them, in public, as always. The rite is intended to transform the consciousness and uplift all. Too bad it has not had the desired effect. If, instead, the other meanings for the sanskrit terms were applied and the Brahmins and Western practitioners of Vamamarg consumed *those* substances... oh, my. We might see some interesting results.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Aleph on Sunday July 15, @04:53PM
          93 Kala Devi,

          You are most welcome.

          As for the use of the particular substances (taboo in Hindu Brahmin society) you refer to (the pancamakaras)... non-efficacious in either the West or the East.

          Here I must disagree with you. Properly used, at the proper times and with the proper rites, they are quite efficacious. Of course they don't work for Brahmins - who are too busy projecting meaning onto everything, which negates the effect. I've seen the Gnostic Mass done that way too ;-)

          If, instead, the other meanings for the sanskrit terms were applied and the Brahmins and Western practitioners of Vamamarg consumed *those* substances...

          Some of them do. Western practitioners, I mean. I neither know nor care what the Brahmins do.

          Of course, Vamamarg has nothing to do with either the Brahmins or the Vedas. Shaivism was the native Dravidian religion, and only grudgingly integrated into 'Hinduism', and thus has no connection whatsoever with the Brahmana. It's not surprising that they get no benefits from attempting to practice Vamamarg.

          93/696
          Aleph


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Kaladevi on Monday July 16, @11:09AM
            Finding layers of meaning to all the overloaded symbolism of the gnostic mass negates the effect??? Not for me, baby. It just gets better and better, knocking me into an altered state, either as a congregant/communicant or as priestess.

            Love,

            Kaladevi... 108s


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Aleph on Monday July 16, @12:42PM
              93,

              More power to you :-)

              Seems to be more of a problem on the priest side. I'm not saying that there is a problem with the search for meaning itself, just that it can be an obstacle if one is projecting it during the performance, or if one uses it to decide how a 'perfect' mass should be performed. I prefer a 'juicy' mass to a 'perfect' mass anytime.

              Reminds me of something that Carl Jung said about perfection being unattainable, and the attempt to achieve it being a distraction from the real work, which is to work towards 'completion'.

              93/696
              Aleph


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Tim Maroney on Friday July 13, @11:16AM
    Alternative religions tend to draw the socially disenfranchised, who tend to have more mental and personal problems than others. I have yet to see anyone who was driven insane or drawn into drug abuse by alternative religion, but I have often seen people with problems in these areas be drawn into such subcultures for the alienated.

    The supposed danger of the occult path is mostly a false claim made for reasons of atmosphere and style. Rituals, models of the universe, and other tools and trappings acquire an inflated sense of significance if they are associated with purported dangers.

    Tim

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 13, @06:36PM
      I have yet to see anyone who was driven insane or drawn into drug abuse by alternative religion, but I have often seen people with problems in these areas be drawn into such subcultures for the alienated.

      Perhaps you've been more fortunate, then; when people get exposed in some instances for the first time in their lives to drugs when experimenting with alternative religion, casualties are going to happen.

      In the realm of insanity, no one exists in a vacuum, but I've seen enough causal evidence of "I've been working on X practices or Y ritual" and the individual's grip on reality, ability to function with others, hold employment, act in a non-dysfunctional manner, etc., crashes soon afterwards. Here I suspect it may be a matter of perspective, though; if I recall, Tim, you don't accept the various practices of magick as anything other than a pyschological exercise.

      The reason I mention that isn't as a flame, although I'm sure it'll be interpreted as one, but rather to point out that if the practices are perceived to have no power, then they can logically have no repercussions.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Shasu Ma'akheru on Friday July 13, @01:03PM
    I'd say that the path, if it is any kind of path at all, is exceedingly dangerous, and that this is inherent in magical practice. There are many sources of such danger, the most important of which would be:

    1. As you increase the level of energy flowing through yourself, any psychological imbalances you have will be greatly magnified. If you do not resolve them and persist in magical practice anyway, they will destroy you.

    2. Many people approach magick the way they do religion, that is, they are seeking something to comfortably confirm their prejudices. The problem is that magick deals with real forces and religion is just a puerile fairy tale. What would be of no consequence in religious belief becomes a dangerous failure to face reality in magical practice.

    3. The magical universe is full of parasitic entities ready to exploit weakness, and nominally benign entities who nevertheless have little tolerance for weakness. (Whether these are objective or subjective is irrelevant.) Failure to face up to this fact is just asking for a smackdown.

    4. "Sanity" is largely a function of one's alignment with the reality of social consensus. The further along the path you get, the further your experiences will diverge from those of the average man and even of other practitioners. In the end, as Nietzsche so astutely observed, you end up so far out there that if you fail, no one will even understand your failure.

    5. Finally, to seriously pursue the magical path is to risk everything. That aside, past a certain point, it is not possible to "go back" to being a "normal" person. This is perhaps not a danger in itself, but it is something many beginners appear to be entirely unconscious of.

    I've seen more people crash and burn through magical/mystical pursuits than not. It is definitely not easy and not safe. But most worthwhile things in life are difficult and dangerous.


    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Tim Maroney on Friday July 13, @01:43PM
      >>I've seen more people crash and burn through magical/mystical pursuits than not.<<

      That seems like a pretty absurd statement. It means that more than 50% of all people you've met in these areas have serious mental problems as a result. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but most pagans, yogins, and Thelemites I've worked with are not so damaged.

      Of those who have shown such severe signs of mental challenge, it's obvious they were damaged long before they started any serious involvement with magic or mysticism.

      Again, it seems obvious to me that causality is being reversed and dangers are being exagerrated here. People who are damaged and who wind up in magical and mystical paths continue to express their normal cycle of getting better and getting worse. Because of the myth of danger and the fact that people like to think they're messing with something really heavy, the path gets blamed for the normal cyclical downturns of these people.

      You will search the DSM in vain for any signs of "mystically-induced schizophrenic disorder." If the path were really so dangerous, psych wards would be filled with these people.

      Tim


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Xnoubis on Friday July 13, @01:51PM
        Well, it's not the DSM, but there is the Spiritual Emergence Network:

        "Drawing on transpersonal psychology and the knowledge from the spiritual traditions which have investigated the stages and characteristics of spiritual growth, the mental health profession in the United States is beginning to understand that some of the characteristic of spiritual development can be confused with symptoms of mental illness."


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Tim Maroney on Friday July 13, @02:07PM
          Note that they're all about differentiating the two categories. Both your quote and others on thier site indicate this, e.g., "Differentiate religious and spiritual problems associated with anomalous experiences from psychopathology," "The class will cover different forms of spiritual issues and emergence, as well as focusing on differential diagnosis and discriminating psychopathology from spiritual emergence."

          At times they take the approach that spiritual experience has a healing effect, e.g., "Recent scientific research shows that spirituality can be important to psychological health and can play a positive role in the treatment of abuse, trauma, and addiction."

          I don't see any support in their site, or their linked resources, for the idea that spiritual experience causes mental problems.

          Tim


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Xnoubis on Friday July 13, @03:05PM
            The SEN was created to assist individuals who are having difficulty with the spiritual process, sometimes within the context of a tradition, and sometimes without, such as spontaneous kundalini experiences. These difficulties aren't always resolved successfully, with or without such assistance. These unresolved difficulties are, I believe, what people are referring to as magical burnout. The mental wards aren't filled with such people, but then again, the path isn't being persued by a very large portion of the population.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by the Reverend Rob on Friday July 13, @06:42PM
        That seems like a pretty absurd statement. It means that more than 50% of all people you've met in these areas have serious mental problems as a result. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but most pagans, yogins, and Thelemites I've worked with are not so damaged.

        Perhaps it's a difference of individuals you know or your social circle, or a difference in functional approach or seriousness exhibited by those people. Maybe you have gotten lucky or have found a relatively sane stable of people involved in these practices; if so, you're luckier than you know.

        Because of the myth of danger and the fact that people like to think they're messing with something really heavy, the path gets blamed for the normal cyclical downturns of these people.

        In those sorts of folks, it could well. In others, who as I mentioned previously don't exhibit signs of mental problems before embarking on a particular ritual structure, the ritual practice looks to be the factor which throws them one way or another over the edge.

        You will search the DSM in vain for any signs of "mystically-induced schizophrenic disorder."

        As long as psychology doesn't really acknowledge the efficacy of these practices on a personal level, there won't be any such diagnosis.

        If the path were really so dangerous, psych wards would be filled with these people.

        Here I'd wager it's simply a matter of percentages of people who show up versus people who actually practice the material in question.


      • Searching in vain
        by the Reverend Rob on Saturday July 14, @02:25AM
        Apparently there is a DSM classification after all.


        • Re: Searching in vain
          by Tim Maroney on Saturday July 14, @11:46AM
          I appreciate the reference, but it's not any kind of "spiritually induced schizophrenic disorder." It's one page away from the end of the main text, under "Other Conditions That May Be a Focus of Clinical Attention." The complete text reads:

          "Religious or Spiritual Problem
          This category can be used when the focus of clinical attention is a religious or spiritual problem. Examples include distressing experiences that involve loss or questioning of faith, problems associated with conversion to a new faith, or questioning of spiritual values that may not necessarily be related to an organized church or religious institution."

          The web page you cited, like all those I read from Xnoubis's link, also insists that strange phenomena resulting from spiritual practice should not be confused with mental disorders:

          "Similarly, in the case of spiritual emergencies, sequellae involving hallucinations, delusions, anger, and interpersonal difficulties occur so frequently that they should be considered normal and expectable reactions to the stressful spiritual awakening. Therefore they should not be diagnosed or treated as mental disorders, but rather as Religious or Spiritual Problems that can lead to long-term improvement in overall well-being and functioning."

          Tim


          • Re: Searching in vain
            by Xnoubis on Sunday July 15, @10:31AM
            It looks to me like we're arguing at cross-purposes here. Shasu Ma'akheru originally wrote "crash and burn." Tim echoed that back as "serious mental problems," which has a more specific meaning for someone with his background in psychology. Even when the Reverend Rob wrote "burnouts, insanity," I didn't take him to necessarily be speaking in a clinical sense.

            The subsequent quotes from the Spiritual Emergence Network, especially "spiritual development can be confused with symptoms of mental illness," and the entire "Diagnosis of Spiritual Emergencies" lesson (Who wrote that? Wow.) seem to support what I thought was the original contention: that disturbances sometimes (maybe often) happen to people who practice spiritual pursuits.

            Nothing so far has demonstrated that these disturbances are considered to be a mental illness, true, but that wasn't originally what I saw as the point.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Jon Auviere on Friday July 13, @01:20PM
    I think the initial hardship is that of Fate and bringing to the surface a need or desire to Master it. This decision alone can bring many obstacles to the path that would almost surely never be there. Even so, it is a wiser choice to make, in my opinion, for that it is better to "learn it all" so to speak and connect the pieces.

    As for drug addictions I don't see how that is relevant. Insanity? If we look at Dianetics "Good Ol' Hubbard" borrows a good chunk of mysticism as a tool to overcome those problems, not the reverse. However, as the process goes, one induces a light trance, which I suppose is steadily increased, wherefore the adverse entities in ones subconscious are called out and released. At midpoint, there would be signs of total madness before the "patient" rectifies the situation, respectively. In the end, all paths should lead to that state of "Inner Peace", and I feel it is a part of human nature that we all must go through "hell and highwaters" to find the gold at the end of the rainbow. But it is silly to me, because humans are generally born halfway there. That is, with a roof over their head, they mustn't worry so much of the fox among the chickens. In reality, "Humans got it easy."

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Anthony on Friday July 13, @01:35PM
    I think at the higher extremes, the path could be fatal in a single ungarded moment, very possibly.

    What could be done to make it safer?
    Well you could have some dude sit down write a book about all the possible pitfalls people could fall into, but it wouldn't do much good because the test is of the purity of one's heart and will, of fearlessness and singularity.

    So I guess none of us do write that book.

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Parlertriks on Friday July 13, @02:42PM
    The main danger of the occult is losing your laughs. If it's funny to be ripped apart by demons, then you never have any problems with it.

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Aleph on Friday July 13, @02:52PM
      93,

      Step right up, and join The Chod Club.

      93/696
      Aleph


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Butthead on Thursday July 19, @01:29PM
        Don't make me hit you, chode munch...


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Votum Succendo on Friday July 13, @04:38PM
    The only 'dangers' I see in mystical pursuits, are the ones imposed on us by the control paradigms that we openly participate in. The 'danger' is in blurring, or crossing the philosophic reinforcements (read:barriers)that have been installed since childhood, obviously changing between dogmatic specifity ,and on and on.

    As products of our 'environments' we strive to both herd and differentiate, and a great portion of ones self-image / worth rests in their ability to blend, to belong. Group or herd mentality. On the other hand we have ideas like unique, one-of-a-kind, original ' and these terms carry their own respective implications of defection, of separation and non-union. Yes you can be both included and unique, but I think that at least I need to polarize every now and again. Completely normal.

    Continued spiritual evolution outside of ones own control paradigm cuses the "danger", to be dangerous - as it only implied that there is something to risk. The saneness that everyone seems to want to maintain is again a product of the control archetecture, and its own perscribed presentation protocal.

    For instance:


    Being judged by conventional standards of communication presentation, I can defiantly personally attest to having been slightly insane ' off and on ' for a week or so. I was having periodic visions of (bear w/me) a raging Satanic beast marching from my bedroom, up behind me at the desk ' and proving its solidity and carnal validity by ripping me to shreds ala Faustian fable. The other main vision was quite simply, giant face in the sky looking down and an overwhelming feeling of being observed, especially outdoors. Now, others must have had this experience (am I sounding bent?)but simultaneously, I was experiencing the 'melt-down' of my childhood, quasi catholic icon structures as they applied to my physical body, in measurements of proximity, purpose, space and scale. I had finally reached the edge of my preconceptions towards the nature of divinity, malign or not ' and the limits of my physical conceptual powers were being sorely stressed as my understanding was assuming a more light based perspective. These 'charcters' were doing a final survival dance, a parting jig'for my ocular perceptions ,and then I absorbed it all. Everything was gone externally, and present internally. Literally alive. Just wanted to be specific and personal.

    While this all may sound schizoid, or merely hammy, I will say that I found this 'death dance of icon structure' a very liberating and healthy evolution. My thoughts no longer carry the weight of external physically based ocular psychology ' or judgments, , social or divine, that aren't consciously emanating from higher or lower, and being reflected back out. Starting the process of 'the path' earlier in the education system may have real social value in equalizing external image acceptance of all manner.

    The "Danger" of evolving past ones agreed envelope will be everpresent, as is natural, and "the path" is dangerous, if "danger" = "different".

    93,
    Votum Succendo

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 13, @07:58PM
    93..:) pon reading all of the above, i have a lot
    of devil foods cake for thought,so much said, by so many intelligent responses, and yet so many
    holes and cracks that it all may fall through as we attempt to grasp after practical solutions to a
    vastly complex issue, so many words of various relgio/mystical associations, come to mind, and even so we still seem to be speaking to the issue as if looking at it from some outer vantage point, as if we are in some social vacuum ajasoned to it, well a lot was spoken to the actual exeriance of such altered states, and the crux of the issue, but nothing was spoken to the age old drug war, which seems to mirror the whole horn of thee delema, as it were.

    so we have here various social stratums, to consider, various contexts, of the text under consideration, damned if you damned if you don't
    perplexed, yes perplexed as Crowley was in his dying last words, we do seem to have a perplexing problem that extends out beyond itself as we speak, i remember Salvador Dali saying about drugs
    that "I am the drug", and he also explored the
    psychological/psychic state of what he termed
    critical paranoia, which i believe is a good approach to the issue at hand, we need to have a critical hyper-context in a hightened condition
    akin to paranoia to begin to have a better working
    hypothsis...

    obviously to those that desire to have the freedom to explore altered states, would be interested in
    alchemic type substances that alow instintanious
    trance states, for quick access to unconscious realms of the psyche of the practitioner, nuff said on that score...

    so for brevities sake, we have "pity not the fallen"...to allow us to scoot along the path
    as we observe the smoking wreackage on either side...

    a bit cold that, but there always was that warning sign that you see right before you pop of the womb
    on the floor, (warning to all who exit here and
    enter there)..know what i mean???

    ...and on a personal note i took enought drugs
    in a short period of time to kill an elephant
    and i was reading occult books and poetry, i saw the abyss, i almost became a perminant phantom
    of the psycho soap opera, and some very strange things happened that i cannot explain, phenomena, ect., and i did servive, to join the OTO(much to the consternation of some , i am sure) and to
    perform about 50 Gnostic massses in the Grand lodge, and also perform in the first Rites of Eleusis, wherin we inbibed many wonderous exotic combinations, throughtout the various Rites, and
    i still wonder why nobody is interested in that
    phase of Thelemic history!?

    perhaps because i wasn't rich!!!

    93 then, now, and always...

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 13, @08:32PM
    p.s. oh ya that was religo. and experiance, the two mispelt words, i am sure some of you latched on to
    immeadiatly, to go 'there, see, proof, of occult drug damage'...har har ba ha har har!!!

    oh I'm sure there are other reasons, i would be
    rendered incapacitated in some of your minds also...

    Nonsequiters, nonwithstanding! (impugn)!!!

    My wife hears Nuit, and she hardly took drugs at all...!

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Anthony on Friday July 13, @11:38PM
    I reckon one of the dangers of the path is ending up sounding like Neal Cassidy on a bad day.

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Saturday July 14, @03:49AM
      or sounding like an occultist
      that dosn't understand Neal Cassidy
      on a bad day, is vastly preferable
      to being another boring know-it-all
      co-called magick practitioner...

      that has nothing but occult lore
      to prove nothing...

      and so it goes...

      besides what is the path if not a fork?

      ill take my danger, you take yours, bla bla bla

      when Neal died on that railroad track
      you didn't even have a clue about cool
      so why would i listen to your book barfed
      occult arrogance..?

      i met a lot of dead magicians, guy!
      they are all dead, so what!


    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Hypocrates on Wednesday July 18, @01:30AM
      "I reckon one of the dangers of the path is ending up sounding like Neal Cassidy on a bad day."

      Sad, but true. Real dangers of the occult... case and point.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Wednesday July 18, @01:54AM
        ...I'm wondering is your head in a case in point?


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Hypocrates on Thursday July 19, @01:34PM
          [In the Shells]


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by El Nigma on Sunday July 22, @01:25PM
            NICE rant, Hypocrates.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Saturday July 14, @04:10AM
    why is it that thelema has become a yuppie
    prepie dumpground for little junior crypto-fascists..?

    everbody seems like they just hate you if you don't have a university degree.?

    i did not need no university degree to channel the 93 current...?

    Neal Cassidy on a bad day..you say?
    how about a arrogant so-called thelemite on a bad day....?

    kinda like seig heil , and 93 don't mix in my book
    but now we got all these right wing types
    talken thelema, like they are what love is the law is all about!...what's that all about!?

    sorry if i embarass you all!!..sheesh lareesh!

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Fra THA;M on Sunday July 15, @06:48PM
      I usually love your caustic wit and applaude your pataphysical train-of thought writings, But...While I despise the virulent right-wing polemics sometimes vomited into this electronic dumping ground, please don't underestimate the necessity of educated Thelemites to lend our discipline an air of authority. You are absolutely correct in saying one doesn't need a formal education...individuals can be well served by self education; and sometimes surpass the slavery of academic brainwashing in this manner. But It Will Be The Infiltrators In The Halls Of Higher Learning who will help to pull the blinders off the world, and have Thelema taken seriously, instead of being dismissed as a joke.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Monday July 16, @03:32AM
        ..look i admire intelligents, and if you can get an education, and have upward mobility, and be a Thelemic person, yes. that is necessary, to the greater good, and all, i hope you don't get that idea i was lumpen all educated people in some sort of bag, its just that, i see the danger of being
        used by the system, and then the O.T.O. just becomes some sort of club for the privilaged!

        ...where i see these on going exchanges, that seem like some sort of shooting match to appear like
        your university degree, is the real grade to be
        made, i mean some people are so damn anal, if you misspell a word, they think it is impossibe to take you seriously, as if there isn't a multiplicity of possible experiances, and whom is to say which is more valid, If my Magus is a lawyer
        so mote it be, but he could be a street poet also,
        get my drift?...enlightenment comes in all sorts of packages...not just educated linear deductive...!


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:12PM
          "the O.T.O. just becomes some sort of club for the privilaged!"

          The OTO? What's that?


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Parlertriks on Monday July 16, @08:01PM
            This.


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 18, @07:34PM
              Sorry i was being facetious.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Xnoubis on Monday July 16, @11:02AM
        > It Will Be The Infiltrators In The Halls Of
        > Higher Learning who will help to pull the
        > blinders off the world, and have Thelema taken
        > seriously, instead of being dismissed as a
        > joke.

        There's a problem though, in that Thelema's illegitimacy is part of its appeal for some people (disaffected artist types, for instance). I'd be more worried that Thelema will be seized by those who don't see the joke at all.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:30PM
          There is a Joke. It's the absurdity of the Universe (shades of Sartre). But Thelema offers a profound counter to such a exisitential conception of reality.

          If Thelema is a just a Joke, then what is the point of having any interest in it, let alone practicing it? If one plays at it for strictly aesthetic reasons, then doesn't that illuminate such a practitioner in a negative light?

          When one chooses as value system (such as Thelema) based on a sense of empowerment they are unable to uncover elsewhere, then that is a pathetic and false sense of empowerment. That is why so many insipid and stupid (I'm not elitist, it's true) people drift towards subcultures...feeling of loneliness and weakness.

          If one's moral code is nothing more than a costume put on when play-acting at magick; if one's ideology is nothing more than character armor to fortify an ego, I'd characterize that person as having weak moral fibre, a Slave to their own insecurities.

          I am the disaffected artist type, Brother, I have chosen it as as my vocation. Hey, I love to laugh heartily at the ridiculous and absurd simulacra we call reality, yet I have the courage to undertake some things with deadly earnest.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Xnoubis on Monday July 16, @07:30PM
            > If Thelema is a just a Joke

            Not just a joke. The Catholics, I believe, formulated the doctrine that Jesus Christ was truly God and at the same time truly Man. My doctrine is that Thelema is pure truth and pure joke. Those that only see the joke are like Sub-Genii, who can't see any higher persuit than mockery. Those who only see the truth are, or tend to be, prigs. I see both, and I'm most comfortable with those other Thelemites who see both as well.

            One could contrast the teachings of Gurdjieff here. Not the man himself, who was apparently full of laughter, as the study of Beelzebub's Tales will attest, but (for example) the Gurdjieff-saturated pages of Parabola magazine. Tasteful, erudite, respectable in every way... but almost entirely humorless, and a bit musty.

            Some academic support would be okay, but we would lose something by becoming too accepted, I think.

            > If one plays at it for strictly aesthetic
            > reasons, then doesn't that illuminate such a
            > practitioner in a negative light?

            Similarly, if one plays at Thelema because it is "taken seriously," it would illuminate the practitioner in a negative light.

            Could we use a dating analogy between Thelema and its aspirants? Thelema doesn't seek partners that only want it for its looks, but that doesn't mean that Thelema should avoid presenting itself nicely. What I hear you saying is that Thelema would meet a better class of partners if it "dressed for success," whereas I see most of the potential partners looking for something in a hot little nightclub outfit. And that doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with those partners, either.


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Libanus on Wednesday July 18, @01:43AM
              --My doctrine is that Thelema is pure truth and pure joke.--

              Wonderful way to put it. I guess that I came to that conclusion as well but never put it in so many words. I never felt so much at ease with any spirituality than Thelema because as the "truth" is revealed to you, the joke becomes larger, more elaborate, and increasingly more funny--allowing you to be inspired to create jokes of your own (and anybody who has seen me communicate at Thelema Lodge knows my propensity for jokes).

              As far as the "danger" of the occult is concerned, I am a firm believer that it is not the occult itself which is at fault but practitioners who are ill-prepared to handle it. The occult can have a "stripping effect" on one psyche--that is--it can emotionally strip you down to what lies in your subconscious. I'm not talking about archetypes or symbols, but injuries and weaknesses. Seven years ago, I came to the realization that I would NEVER be able to grow or progress spiritually until I took control of my emotional injuries. In Qabbalistic terms, until I secured and reinforced Malkuth, any progress up the Tree would be fragile and diseased, prone to collapse. After over a decade of Psychotherapy (with the help of a therapist who encouraged my interest in Thelema), I believe that I actually accomplished that. My progress in an occult setting worked, because I got myself in shape to do it (I suppose it could be considered a form of yoga).

              Those who went insane or collapsed as a result of occult practice, I believe, already had the seeds of decay within them. They didn't get their ducks in a row on the material plane first before plunging into Magick. Regardie recommended that all Magickians also be in Psychotherapy, and I think he was right on target. One doesn't have to do it that way, but I insist that if you don't know your weaknesses or how to deal with them, playing with Magick is like playing with fire.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 18, @08:37PM
                "Those who went insane or collapsed as a result of occult practice, I believe, already had the seeds of decay within them"

                Too true. To an aspirant who undertakes the path, the dangers encountered thereon represent no more a threat than any endeavor undertaken in life. Individuals have been driven to psychosis by books, movies, trees and just about type of stimulis one may conceive. Those who are sundered by the burdens of the Great Work, whose souls are tortured by the severity of their obligations, these inividuals would have fallen from any path. But the 'secret cheifs' (heehee) are less forgiving, and their punishments for failure absolutely damning. As I'm sure you (as I) may attest.


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by star_phoenix on Sunday March 31, @09:31AM
                  It's a bit of a paradox, but those most naturally equipped with talent in magick are the ones most susceptible to injury. More thick skinned types could invoke Choronzon and draw endless inverted pentagrams to points north and only experience a vague tingling sensation along the spine.

                  The danger of being afflicted through magickal action is equivalent to the ability of the practitioner to make something happen and truth is ... few are capable forming the connections that might put them at risk.

                  The other type of individual at danger is the neurotic, unbalanced individual, who grows compulsive/obssessive about ritual practices. However the dangers in this case, are rarely 'magickal'in the objective sense, but more often self induced delusions, fantasies, phobias and persecution complexes.

                  As a practicing magician who works both Thelemic and Enochian ritual, my best advise to any who have a concern in this regard, is to seek balance and supplement courage with knowledge. A practioner who is fearless, armed and informed rarely gets burnt. The greatest dangers lies in wait for those who have developed powers of concentration and visualisation, but who are intrinsically unbalanced. Such may indeed create a connection - especially through the vehicle of Enochian magick - and then find themselves unable to maintain their centre. In such cases possession can be a very real danger.

                  Love under will.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Tim Maroney on Thursday July 19, @08:25PM
                What a great statement!

                I do think magic and mysticism are dangerous for those who have, as you say, the seeds of decay already within them. There is a great potential for acting out, for feeding delusions, for ritualizing dysfunctional defense mechanisms, and for stripping away functional or semi-functional defense mechanisms without replacing them with better ones.

                My point is not that spiritual paths are not dangerous -- it's that they don't drive anyone crazy who wasn't halfway there already. For those people, then yes, a good course of psychotherapy ought to be a precondition.

                Tim


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Hypocrates on Tuesday July 24, @03:31AM
                  Is there anyone who does not already have "the seeds of decay within them"?


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Parlertriks on Tuesday July 24, @06:43PM
                    DuPont's new seedless variety, homo steriliens


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 18, @08:54PM
              What is your viewe on the progression of Aeons, brother? Do you see the Age of Horus unfolding in the world? Do you have any desire to help others accept the Law of the Aeon and consequently make them concious of their own individuality? If you play at thelema as a mere psychodrama, or stage on which to roleplay, I humbly apologize for discoursing with you. I generally assume that other Thelemites take both their self-developement and interest in bettering their fellow man seriously. I guess I am the Fool. I notice a general dislike of academia from a number of posters. Perhaps they should examine their motivations...Love Is The Law, Love Under Will.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Xnoubis on Thursday July 19, @10:09AM
                > What is your viewe on the progression of Aeons,
                > brother?

                I've outlined my thoughts on the subject in Theories of Aeons, Crowley and Spiral Dynamics, and Shades of Aeons. But I think what underlies your question is, do I take Thelema seriously? Let me emphasize: I do indeed. When I say it is for me pure truth, I mean it. As it is written in the 16th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice: "And the mystery shall be revealed to whosoever shall say, with ecstasy of worship in his heart, with a clear mind, and a passionate body: It is the voice of a god, and not of a man." A direct gateway into the timeless heart of deity.

                I also insist: it is an utter joke. A dirty joke. A very funny joke.

                And I refuse to reduce one side of this contradiction into the other. You seem to want to peg me as denying side A if I affirm side B, but I tell you, it isn't so.

                > I notice a general dislike of academia from a
                > number of posters.

                That could be. I have no dislike of academia. I think it has a crucial role to play in our evolutionary drama, as does Thelema. I just don't believe that the roles overlap much for the foreseeable future.


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @04:12PM
                  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but i get the impression you would desire to segregrate those Thelemites whose interest is primarily intellectual. You don't beleive the roles overlap? I would count myself as contrary to your point. Yet I notice a latent hostility toward those whose pleasure is in the more scholarly path (I'm especially pointing fingers and throwing stones at You, Jazzcat). So you would like to ostracize myself, and brethern like me from your Thelemic social circle? Sure, as you Will; I encounter elitists from every facet of life.


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Xnoubis on Thursday July 19, @04:55PM
                    "i get the impression you would desire to segregrate those Thelemites whose interest is primarily intellectual."

                    What? Not at all.

                    "You don't beleive the roles overlap?"

                    Intellect and Thelema? There's more overlap than disparity. I thought we were talking about academia and Thelema. Big difference, yes?

                    Let's see if I can make my point more clearly. There's a huge transformation going on. In Thelema, we call it the New Aeon; other walks of life have different ways of describing it. This transformation involves politics, science, religion, popular culture, economics, practically every aspect of human endeavor. Some sub-groups within our institutions are attempting to engage this transformation. In the academy, I see this engagement currently happening within transpersonal psychology, comparative religion, theology, and a few other fields. Within that setting, certain spiritual traditions tend to be given more credibility, like Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, Sufism, and Vedanta. My contention is that those traditions are sufficient to provide academia with everything they need, for now, anyway.

                    Those aspects of Thelema that make it a better choice for us don't add much value from an academic point of view, as far as I can see. On the other hand, the more college students and even professors that are drawn into Thelema, the better. But I see this as a matter of culture, not scholarship.


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @07:43PM
                      Well said Xnoubis. My difference with you was a result of miscommunication, and variant terms. I actively proselytize at school, albeit in a subtle manner.

                      "I thought we were talking about academia and
                      Thelema. Big difference, yes?"

                      Those intellectuals and academics with whom I discuss philosophy and politics really see the merit of Thelema, especially in regards to social concerns, morals and politics. I leave out any reference to magick and introduce Liber Al as a profound prose poem. These individuals are usually liberated free-thinkers anyway, and quite sympathetic to the ideas (usually less so to the man). This was the academia I was referring to, while you meant the crusty, backward looking attitude of elitism and conformity which abounds.

                      "There's a huge transformation going on. In Thelema, we call it the New Aeon;..."

                      Truly Truly. The Aeon of Horus is the zeitgeist which has overtaken the world, starting with the revolution of modernism, gaining momentum with post-modernism, and now being truly distilled in the crucible of post-industrialism. A Thelemites I thinki we employ the word aeon as a convinience. We have never seen a time of such individual liberty (We have feminism, queer rights, and a dozen other previously unthinkable philosophies as commonplaces.) But with such an extreme of liberty, there are momentous risks which threaten us with profound slavery. That is why I see the importance of academic minds and Thelema...to help provide solutions for these exoteric perils. I need the help of professional intellectuals (usually found in academia) because I am not one...I'm a mere painter and poet, brother.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Tim Maroney on Thursday July 19, @08:43PM
                What is your viewe on the progression of Aeons, brother? Do you see the Age of Horus unfolding in the world? Do you have any desire to help others accept the Law of the Aeon and consequently make them concious of their own individuality?

                Just so you'll know, this sort of thing sounds to me like "Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?"

                If you play at thelema as a mere psychodrama, or stage on which to roleplay, I humbly apologize for discoursing with you.

                This is a direct insult against those of us who take a non-literalist stance on Thelemic mythology. The attempted masquerade as an apology does nothing to mitigate it.

                I generally assume that other Thelemites take both their self-development and interest in bettering their fellow man seriously.

                And then you follow it up with another insult, that anyone who is not a Crowleyan literalist concerning this Aeonic model is not taking things seriously.

                "I thought you believed in the Resurrection and the Atonement, brother, I thought you took Christianity seriously, but since you view it as a mere fairy tale for the amusement of academics, I am truly sorry for wasting your time."

                Sigh.

                Tim


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Fra THA;M on Friday July 20, @09:58AM
                  Had you taken the few brief moments it would have taken to read my posting (look up, loook waaay up) just above yours, you would have realized that I am humanist Thelemite, and fervent atheist. I apply the Thelemic terminology as a 'convinience' to explain natural phenomena. The law of Thelema isn't a literal oath or code of conduct, its a state of mind. My Thelema is primarily political. But your deconstruction of the logic of my arguement, and your ability to reconstitute it into something with a completely different meaning, I applaud this. I applaud it, although it isn't what I meant. The logic of language isn't my strongest asset.


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Tim Maroney on Friday July 20, @05:27PM
                    I have read your messages in this thread and others. I do not believe my reading of the message I responded to is in any significant way a mischaracterization of your intent or stated meaning, and you have not stated any specific way in which it was mistaken.

                    Tim


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Fra THA;M on Friday July 20, @08:13PM
                      "I do not believe my reading of the message I responded to is in any significant way a mischaracterization of your intent or stated meaning..."

                      You don't beleive your reading of the message is a mischaracterization? There are a lot of things I don't beleive in as well: Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Jesus. I would be appreciative of some surety regarding the reading of my message.

                      "you have not stated any specific way in which it was mistaken."

                      None (explicit expressions of how it was mistaken)was needed. It is self evident in what the text denoted. As follows...

                      "you follow it up with another insult, that anyone who is not a Crowleyan literalist concerning this Aeonic model is not taking things seriously."

                      Not only is the implication a fallacy, but an abject fabrication. One, I had explicitly stated I was not a Crowleyan literalist. Two, I had explicitly, and without ambiguity, stated I did not beleive in any literalist (by which I assume you mean somehom esoteric. Aeonics is such a multivocal symbol set, it defies any one meaning) interpretation of Aeons. And Three, when you equate literalism with insult regarding the Aeonic model, you are utilizing a jump in logic. Falsely. There is no indicator in the text from which you can assume this. I was intentional ambiguous, and any implication is as equally ambiguous. I made a broad ranging generalization only. As well you write...

                      "This is a direct insult against those of us who take a non-literalist stance on Thelemic mythology..."

                      So I am directly insulting my sensibility as well(Hrummph. Here insert a derisive snort on my behalf). If Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself. I will end here as this type of dialogue is abyssmally boring.


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Tim Maroney on Friday July 20, @08:19PM
                        Keep working on it -- you're reaching levels of incoherence that would make both our resident anti-Semite and what's-his-name-this-week proud!

                        Tim


                        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                          by Fra THA;M on Friday July 20, @08:24PM
                          We're similar in this regard, we both like to dish it out. Only you can't take it.


                        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                          by what's-his-name-this-week on Sunday July 22, @05:37PM
                          [In the Shells]


                          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                            by Parlertriks on Sunday July 22, @07:24PM
                            an how's your book doing?


                          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                            by Tim Maroney on Wednesday July 25, @11:36AM
                            Just in case this was a real question, the book has sold about 70% of its first printing so far, and it is continuing to sell. I'm pretty pleased with this performance for a specialty title, especially given that I have not had the time to do promotion.

                            Tim


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Votum Succendo on Saturday July 14, @10:40AM
    "There is nothing so dangerous in the path as you seem to imply any more than there is risk of a falling bull on your local street."

    To which he replied, "After watching a decade of burnouts, insanity, drug addiction, violence, and more in the mystical community, I'd beg to differ."
    -----------------

    The REAL story here, sounds like Rev. B need's to find better friends. His reflection on the nature of the "mystical" community seems sorely lacking -as we have all come in contact w/powerful, healthy people in direct association with Thelema which could, i guess be considered "mysticism" if need be. Ever met any good folk in the mystical community Bob?

    -andst-

    Hopefully Rev.B wasn't implying that the Xtian community doesn't display "burnouts, insanity, drug addiction, violence, and more", or the inverse - some disproportionate amount of the Mystical Mass are all hopped up, or fucked up,either way its an obvious one-sided, polarized viewpoint devoid of balance.

    "The Path" as we are referring to (it), seems to be natural human development, and in truth, the whole danger in life is being restricted (sin)from "it" (being Logos)lost in the automation of pop culture presentation and control structure, or being so far removed from the info that it never gets a chance to circulate your way.

    As for the sometimes arrant knaves that waive their flags around w/a "look at me" here, and an "Im so exalted" there, it suprises me that witnessing their own hubris en pixel doesn't compel them to just digress - out of sheer embarrassment. We talk of the Abyss, and the potential of Chivalry, and that's fine. One step foreword, two steps back.

    Trying to hook others into a conversation based only on colloquial reference terminology seems somehow shabby, and desperate. Success breathes silence. And yet...its unavoidable to continue a discussion without projecting conclusions.

    In conclusion, ahem, I will add that unless Rev. B has never personally ever participated in any sort of burning out, addiction or violence, he may need to count himself victim to the self-same (non-mystical, by implication)community that supposedly displays fewer of these deplorable traits, or somesuch hogwash.

    Ooops there's my music,........finally............

    Blue Diamonds, Purple Horseshoes and Green Clovers,
    (V.S.)

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Anthony on Saturday July 14, @12:19PM
    Man I dig Neal Cassidy big style I was playing with ya.

    I'm not a so called practitioner actually, I will declare - tempted to say confess - the grade of magus but am not expecting a medal or anything.
    Just a knife in the gut one day.

    I was having a laugh cause when I was on a recent trip - before breaking the addiction to doing magick - I ended up in a weird type of headspace like a cross between the King and Neal Cassidy, and there was an inner dialogue and every sentence was punctuated with loud AHEMS and HURUMPHS. Like inner mania, you know what I mean, danger of the fool.

    I seriously need my sense of humour back.
    I am busy being Saturn at the moment as if we needed another Saturn rock band.

    No offence intended, truly.

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Anthony on Saturday July 14, @12:24PM
      And I know that's my fault for being Jesus Christ or The Beast or whoever, but I was just getting bored of not-doing and decided to do some stuff, and do the whole ride of the worm thru the manson albums in the world again, just for bully.

      I don't really have the hang of this.
      He must act though it like him not.
      I can not-do for ages and then I just do, and I always regret it in many senses, then again kinda not. I think I lost half a stone in a day. poof. Or maybe the scales were broke.


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Anthony on Saturday July 14, @12:26PM
        Today I looked, all day, like that spooky kid in twin peaks used to hang around with the old woman, wore a mask with a long pointy nose.

        Can't remember if they were from the black lodge or the white.

        I think they're from the white lodge and are forms of the Angel warning of danger.

        Anyway, enough ramblings.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Monday July 16, @03:44AM
          ...Anthony, sorry if i used your point, to bounce
          off of and feign indignant, but i need to get that
          out, about the experiance not being seperate from
          the reality, we can stand back and discuss stuff
          like we are observing the phenomenon, but at some junture we must live it!..be it! like the Beats!

          when i was in the Grand lodge, i had already passed through my own self-initiation, and if
          some other wants to label it, 'psychotic break'
          or cognitive disonance, or crossing the abyss
          or taking a sunday strol through the Golden Gate park...its none of my concern, dig?

          i like your far writing man! WOW!!!


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Anthony on Wednesday July 18, @01:35AM
            No worries man, erm I know also that loss of humour is a danger, but not really a danger I'll fall into but I've had a pretty hard time lately.
            I am probably also bouncing off you a bit.
            I also kinda had my own period a few years ago of living like Cassady, living for "kicks" and forgot the Work at that point thinking I'd made it and it was all over, and not realising that this was a pitfall because at a certain level, certain "forces" are out to destroy ya.

            I am these days a part-time beatnik.
            I want to open up again and enjoy myself a bit more but so so many pitfalls, all those girls, the grog, the weed, is why I have become rather more ascetic these days and if it comes across that I'm very austere then I am, but really I should just dig that this is for the good of my own health and not a universal prescription.

            (No I'm not celibate though :))


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Anthony on Wednesday July 18, @01:48AM
              The Beats... were living "it" but only a certain level of it. They were doing the whole lust for life thing which is real cool and they ended up real dead real early except Burroughs I guess, who's my favourite writer anyway, and I wouldn't classify him with the beats as a writer.

              At a certian level, pleasure itself becomes an enemy, almost, because the pursuit of pleasure leads to continual disillusionment and a fall back into manifestation. So we can not then "pursue" pleasure or indeed anything, because this is "the extension of the 1" and we do badly to fall too far from the tao and from our individual work.

              And you do come across sounding like....Manson on "The Dope Show" or something. I think he's a cool guy, he knows stuff, when ya see him aright.

              Pleasure is not the problem, pursuit is the problem. But this is really my thing and just cause I see my own cycles now totally and am reluctant to do them again so have to be patient and "boring" as the world would see me very often and let things happen.

              But I been there and man I shed a tear cause them days they was cool and the kid became the high priestess though the fool is appearing again thank ra-hoor-khuit, and I'm still only really coming to terms with it. All the things of this world got a price attatched, to a magus the price often just ain't worth paying, it's usually dismemberment.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Wednesday July 18, @02:21AM
                ...what am i suppose to sound like, some educated
                someboby?...seems to me its the educated dudes that got everything right where they want them, in thier Kontrol!!!...yasa Bourroughs is my favorite also, "Breakthrough In a gray room", "All agents
                follow pan pipes home"...I went through a mental; dismemberment, so i been there, I don't abuse substances any longer, Hell where i live i don't even know anyone to get grass from, i come on here and write cuz, i know i am buggen all of those academic sounding "thelemites"...see, i took an oath to the new aeon, and thats what i am doing, my true will, NOT THERES!, I learned the hard way about the price of knowledge, it costs an arm and a leg, especialy if you don't fit in in society,
                and i didn't, and i had no help from nobody, my
                family did not send me to a university, anyway
                why are people so unglued that not every thelemite sounds like a fucking walking dictionary anyway?

                ...when absolute power becomes in the hands of absolute power mongers, then the thelemic experiment will have been crushed, and we won't even know it...there is that Manson enought fer ya!

                hey that is funny, cuz when i was in grand losenge the second in Kontrol thought my wife and i were going to try to steal the OTO secret documents, like the Brady bunch, (not the family on TV), and Manson was involved with the Brady gang!...of course that couldn't have been further from the truth!..people were tring to take advantage of us though!

                later, alligator...da Jazzcat! 93/93


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Anthony on Wednesday July 18, @11:57AM
                  Man I truly fall in awe and worship I reckon you got a lot of points there, go get em.

                  As for the OTO, I don't know much about it, but I bet Eric Cartman wouldn't join and if Cartman wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, that's my rule.

                  (Except the Mae Ling episode but he was concussed at the time. Sucky sucky five dollar soldier boy)

                  I got all the OTO grades telepathically ages ago anyway, and the Masonic Grades, and everything of value from the Church of Satan, Liber Al gets better every read, and Cartman is still God as far as I'm concerned.


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Anthony on Wednesday July 18, @12:01PM
                    I should ha really added the A.A. but the point there isnt' to peacock crow but to agree with you - we don't really need these organisations.
                    I don't know much about them but I'll bet a lot of em could be better to say the least. I haven't had anything to do with any of them except a brief missive to a few and I don't particularly have anything against them, I think even the whole Typhonian thing has a certain value if you don't get Kenneth Granted by it, there again Xianity has value in some respects also, cf Crowley in the Tien Tao if that's what it's called.

                    You do see dudes come and go and they is at war with some shit and they is at war with themselves really and the more they hate something they more they are it and I might sometimes look like that but I do have to "formulate myself as a partial being" sometimes to make a point, if I choose to, and I don't even have to make a point if I don't want to I guess cause there's no point to make really as far as I'm concerned except this one - .


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Anthony on Wednesday July 18, @12:11PM
                      I do like to crow really because I'm a lot like Crowley in many respects, and I'm actually a Capricorn so probably even more so, I am like him, a genius and an asshole, however much I "temper" myself and I do a good job, I am still always going to be an asshole at the end of the day and that's the way I like to be.

                      I am going to something truly great in the world but I don't know what it is. Well I got 40 odd songs so far that are truly great and everyone a ticket to the double-edged sword of freedom, pure gold, and I hate Marilyn Manson for being the antichrist coz I wanted to be and it's not fair and I don't really know what else you can be except the antichrist after The Beast, except the second coming of JizzyCry, but Jizzycry (yeah, Artaudianism) is a bit soppy and girly and his only job when he comes back is to sit on a throne and shit on everyone and Manson has done that already and I do too, though I also take em out to the Nagual and have the TRUE MAGICK not just the psychodrama roleplay of the showbiz COS and OTO and whoever else.

                      And I just wanted to say that.
                      So if anyone has an archetype that they think needs fulfilling I'm your man, provided it's a good one I can get my teeth into and none too soppy.

                      Something cool and religious to impress the folk and nothing simple and true like "total dick" which is what I am to be truthful, a total dick.


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Fra THA;M on Wednesday July 18, @07:24PM
                        "So if anyone has an archetype that they think needs fulfilling I'm your man, provided it's a good one I can get my teeth into and none too soppy."

                        Do you wanna play Attis to my Cybele? You can make the traditional sacrafice of the Galli...chop chop chop. Mayhaps ye are to frigid to go Phrygian? Although the archetypes of Christ and his Foe may be taken, Attis too was slain, and risen again. You say that you're a total dick? Come to Magna Mater and I'll releive you of that problem.


                        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                          by Anthony on Thursday July 19, @12:51AM
                          I did that again last night thanks but purely naturally and without the great drama of previous times, I have been recently extending my life cycle as AC say in the comment on Liber Al, extending the IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII as far as it'll go, reaching the limit and saying - ok that'll do, and now I want to die and I died quite a bit last night in "the body of nuit", very deep actually but I'm still alive to my changrin because life on earth is pretty wearisome very often, I am working on it though.

                          I think castration is a bit unnecessary at this point of my path, more just preventing the extension of the 1. I think I will be requiring the services of my phallus and it getting the chop and me turning into a creeping jesus eventually is wearisome now.

                          As for those archetypes, pretty nice but the man in the street won't have familiarity with them really.


                          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                            by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @10:30AM
                            He that lives long and desires death much is ever the King among Kings! You say that life on earth is wearisome Brother? Dissolve thyself in the body of Nuit, Extend the 'I' so far from the point, to the circumference of eternity that the point is lost in the mists of memory. For in that first death, so called, you shall find that existence is pure joy...and that sorrows are mere shadows that pass and are done. Love Brother, Love Under Will. The oppressions of the qlippoth, and burdens of thy obligations shall amount to naught, For you are a Star and a King.


                            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                              by Anthony on Thursday July 19, @11:59AM
                              Thank you, brother.
                              I have been there before many times, and written the songs, very beautiful they are, and I'm going there again, it's begun and is getting deeper, this is just my longest life cycle for as long as I can remember, and the most intense by a long shot.

                              I have just been indulging a bit. My real battles on the physical plane are won though my wounds hurt, and my body is under toll for my having lived on the edge so much. I do love life and I do desire death much.

                              My problem is love.
                              I either love too much and break my heart or I don't love at all, or I love in a decent amount and it spills into the extremes again. It'll be sorted I guess. Experience is the teacher.


                  • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                    by Xnoubis on Wednesday July 18, @12:28PM
                    > I bet Eric Cartman wouldn't join

                    "RESPECT MAH AUTHORI-TAY!!!"

                    Sure he would.


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Wednesday July 18, @06:06PM
                      ...sorry i plead dum, on this one

                      ...da jazzcat say; fuck em all, and sort em out layta!

                      caio, meow, and 93

                      Hidi hidi ho!
                      chzos neva die!


                      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                        by Anthony on Thursday July 19, @01:05AM
                        I agree really. Let em run around the abyss in bondage to Knowledge the accursed one, worshipping the rim of the chief asshole, wasting their money on psychodrama, reducing magick to psychotherapy and losing what remains of their sanity in their ill-advised megalomaniacal pursuit.

                        It's just me you see I still have this stupid desire to help people that won't quite go away.

                        I had hoped to put a cat among a few pigeons there but unfortunately no-one's flapping.

                        I agree with Don Juan. A leaf fell from a tree and Carlitos said - that is a one off occurance, could never happen again, so Don Juan made the leaf go back on the tree and made it fall again.
                        That is magick. That is really magick.

                        Not all this palarver of I invoke thee o god of the kettle that thou might steam and steam, o steam kettle! Send forth thy steam! Wherewith I shall make coffee to bind myself to a false world of artificial stimulants and prevent knowledge of the Nagual - which does have a lot to do with diet I think.

                        Ya don't need cannabis and LSD. Just stop drinking so much coffee and reduce sugar, junk food, etc, those things bind the brain to consensus reality, there are other real ways of getting to the other side if ya wanna call it that.

                        I am a shaman ultimately, magick was just a sideline for me. There's an aspect of illusion in shamanism, but a lot that's beyond that, illusion again and it's on 8:32am and I want to go back to bed cause this kinda thinking exhausts me and I cut it out for ages.


                    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                      by Anthony on Thursday July 19, @12:54AM
                      He'd join but only as the chief asshole of the entire universe, boss of all the subordinate assholes who he would govern with equal temper tantrums and cheesy poofs.

                      Well the offer is there, if anyone in the OTO wants to chuck a vast fortune my way I might just deign to give them the occasional pearl from my enormous wand, but probably become a black brother in the process of so doing.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Nexist on Saturday July 14, @07:39PM
    As has been pointed out, Alternative Religions (inc. Spiritual Philosophies, etc) pull in people who are -- for whatever reason -- dissatisfied with Mainstream (i.e. "Sane") Religion. There dissatisfaction is probably also manifest in other elements & there is a high chance for some sort of cognitive dissonance in a majority of those drawn to the "occult".

    Now, few would argue that Magick does not work on the mind (if you do, you may as well stop reading and just start telling me I am wrong). Once you start working with Mysticism & Magick, you are now engaged in a race between "expanding the power of your mind" and repairing the dissonance that drew you to Magick in the first place.

    There are several possible outcomes, I will only cover a few:
    1. Yeah! you made it, you are an enlightened & well balanced being (consult your paradigm for definitions of these terms)
    2. Darn! you blew up, you now exist as a junkie, a shade or a whacko (Hopefully reincarnation is true & you can get another chance).
    3. You're Safe. Your approach to Magick and Mysticism are merely a pose, & you couldn't zap your fluff of mind anyway (except by accident, in which case move to the previous example).

    Most of us are actually in two, though I hope we are all actually attempting to get better & acheive the first option.

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Jon on Sunday July 15, @04:11AM
    Hi!

    I must confess I haven't read all of the thread, but there is one tale I'd like to share. An italian brother told me of the fate of one of his acquaintances during a meeting. The chap became a member of the Roman Lodge of the O.T.O, something he has gotten to regret. He started out with only some *basic training*, joined the group, and was integrated by the lodge community into ritual workings etc. The roman section of the O.T.O consists of quite advanced mages, and the poor chap was immediately confronted with participating in high Magick. Needless to say, he became insane and, at the point of me hearing the tale, had been residing in a psychiatric clinic for six months.

    So much guidance on risk-return.

    Certainly the LHP has a great amount of risks. The dissolution of habits and ones socially defined behaviour on the quest for ones true will is greatly destabilizing, as the ego goes through the process of being robbed of its identifying elements, or 'crutches' and has to come to terms with that. Without the proper intellectual frameset, it is indeed a dangerous task. It is necessary to view and analyse oneself from a metaphysically detached point of view, which is why Liber Jugorum is of high importance.

    Following the Qliphotic path has its advantages over this.

    J.

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Fra THA;M on Sunday July 15, @12:25PM
    The dangers (besides that posed by "malevolent" persons, grrrr) of the occult path are pychological and subjective. The oppression of negative energies are a psychosomatic affliction. But that in no way devalues their destructive and consequentially transformative attributes. The line between the 'madness of initiation' and mental illness aren't well drawn. I would argue that many forms of clinical psychosis have exact equivalents in mystic states of conciousness. Anyone who has performed the folly (such as myself) of taking early the oath of a Magister Templi, and seriously followed through on it, will attest to this fact. If they manage to survive they will relate that the state is exactly that of a paranoid schizophrenic, or manic depressive.

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Parlertriks on Monday July 16, @12:13PM
      "Anyone who has performed the folly (such as
      myself)"


      A wise guy, ey?


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Fra THA;M on Monday July 16, @06:05PM
        Ze alchemical marriage Oef Ze Opposites.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by an as-of-yet nameless Beast Bay contributor on Thursday July 19, @12:53PM
    I just had to grab the 93rd post. Sorry.

    But anyways, someone earlier brought up the Thelemic concept of 'ordeals', which are undergone as a test of one's character and strength when one starts out upon the path. For example, the summer I turned 11 was the summer I started to pursue the magical path... in that one summer, my grandmother died, my parents divorced, I was forced to move to a shitty little ghetto area of town, and I started getting the shit beat out of me at school. It's been nine years, and things have just recently started to get ([hopefully] permanently) better (and trust me, they've been worse since then). Believe me, Ra-Hoor-Khuit doesn't fuck around. Of course, I've gained a lot in the way of self-development, and, despite myself, I'm glad I got the chance to learn as much as I did.

    Interestingly, my experience has always been that an ordeal will present itself as such; which means, that things happen in such a way as to let you know you're being tested, or maybe just stretched over the rack for a while. Perhaps something which defies all sane and reasonable logic comes about as smoothly and surely as can be, leaving the unfortunate with his or her mouth hanging open in shock and dismay. Oddly, that knowledge has never seemed to make things any easier.......

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Thursday July 19, @04:21PM
      oh, 93rd poster, your thoughts are very well
      brought out, i like that!, you said something very valid, and even though i don't dis academic discorse, i just think that people that rely on it
      to constantly prove how damn intelligent thay are, and end up being more academic oriented, to the point that if you don't come on like mister highly academic sounding man, then people don't take you seriously, or thay take you as a joke, bad joke dirty joke, whatever, my view being as i am a reader of various diffrent subjects, however my academic credentails are zilch, however i am a thelemite, i persued a literary approach, and i believe if for instance, someone was reading Carlos Casteneda, and said, oh' this is to difficult to understand, the analogy, is to far fetched, it is not scientific enought, it would be the same thing when doind magickal pratice, at a certain level, the magus is speaking on a level where the unconscious will just comes from that place where you cannot analize it in an cold calulating way, it goes with saying that there is scientific explanations for everything, but in practice at a certain point the pratictioner, is not being analitical, but is useing the pure analogy of the deep unconscious, therefore "Oddly
      that knowledge has never seemed to make things any easyer"....It is never easy, to speak from the
      level of the Magus and be able to sustain it in such a way so as to be understood!...therefore
      do they resort to the academic level, as if constant scientific theory, will fill the gap!

      scientific knowledge, academic knowledge, will
      never be speaking from the level of the Magus
      and as soon as the magus begins to sound like a scientist, or some academition, then you know
      the curse of the grade!


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Parlertriks on Thursday July 19, @07:41PM
        "scientific knowledge, academic knowledge, will never be speaking from the level of the Magus"

        whereas a pratling, stream of conscious word play does it all the time!


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 20, @12:53AM
          [In the Shells]


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 20, @01:38AM
          [In the Shells]



          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Parlertriks on Friday July 20, @12:01PM
            hey, this shell thing is great. is there any way we can subscribe to it by email?


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Lord Hitler on Friday July 20, @02:48PM
              Just keep on with your goofy comments?


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Parlertriks on Friday July 20, @03:05PM
                awright:

                Auviere, Auviere, send the word, to be heard, Auviere!


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Parlertriks on Monday September 03, @03:53PM
                i gotta be me
                i gotta be me
                daring to try
                to wilt or die
                i gotta be me


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Fra THA;M on Thursday July 19, @08:05PM
        "and as soon as the magus begins to sound like a scientist, or some academition, then you know
        the curse of the grade!"

        For shame, Brother. Although the neschamah lies beyond the ruach, both exist conterminously within the magus, and as such, are explicable in any the magus sees fit. I take exeption with your raving.

        "scientific knowledge, academic knowledge, will
        never be speaking from the level of the Magus"

        Do you think you are sole arbiter of the path? I for one have never had the audacity to sit like YhShVH the Judge and announce that only those like myself can undertake the Highest adjurations. Such arrogance. Academia is surely no requisite for intelligence, but those who use such a medium aren't deserving of your scorn.

        And finally onto your gross misunderstanding of science. You imply that it is not mystic enough? Too dry? Try reading some books on theoretical physics at the quantum level. It will blow you away. Those men are as much mystics as many drug-addled self-professed, self-deluded 'magicians' I've encountered. There are beauties in the rigours of all disciplines, Thelemic and others.

        The curse of the Grade? The inability to maintain focus or coherence.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by jazzcat goodshiplollypop on Friday July 20, @12:39AM
          [In the Shells]


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Fra THA;M on Friday July 20, @09:41AM
            I have never felt the need to speak down to you, to speak in laymans terms. But I guess perhaps I should. I in no way feel superior to you, au contraire, my embittered brother. I have always extolled your style, and appreciated your wit. I have never felt my fragile world of delusion so threatened as to resort to personal attacks; all I did was point out your unThelemic elitist behavior, as brothers should do. Are you victim to such an Ego-abscess that you think you are beyond reproach...you are always condemning individuals (as am I), but are so weak to take personal offence at criticism. I myself have never gotten beyond a cursory look at quantum physics, I admit I lack the capacity. At least I can admit such things. Have you ever thought about conversion to Christianity? You would make a great one...hypocrisy and egoism are prime requisites.


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Anthony on Saturday July 21, @12:46AM
          I think there are a lot of aspects to the curse of the grade, including something so basic as to be able to go from being a perfectly decent human being to a complete asshole with a single wrong act, and for it to take weeks to recapitulate yourself back to your point.

          I agree with you here.
          I don't think scientific knowledge should be shunned any more than worshipped.

          I think a large aspect of the curse of the grade though is realising that all the paths are intrinsically false, no matter what they are.
          They can be useful to a point but then they are transcended.

          It is about how much you can get trapped in other people's systems, and if you are essentially putting forth your "law" for others' benefit, it is a recognition of all the many pitfalls they are going to fall into should they choose to follow you, which many will, and all you can try to do is help that process, but fact is, until they "kill" you they'll never be truly free.

          But the fact is my "law" such as it is, is where they're at anyway, whether they see it or no, but there again is the curse that I can reveal the depths, they could fixate there, or they could even many perfectly fine individuals to begin with, double and simulate a madness that they didn't need to begin with. Which is all part of the fool's journey but hopefully they'll reach the end thereof and find as Don juan said "All paths are the same, they lead nowhere"

          Except the wayless way which can not be described because any description is a falsification thereof, and any prescription is ultimately a diversion, and words is a pain in the ass but you gotta use em really.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Anthony on Saturday July 21, @12:57AM
            Sorry for the typos, I'm not incoherent though.

            Imagine a universe of illusion where everything is language. Imagine for instances that diseases might be linguistic. People bend themselves readily to fit interpretations given by authorities. The word of a magus as a doctor - you have schizophrenia, gives that person schizophrenia, whereas they probably had.. a few qlipphoth, a fear of sexuality combined with of course a massive unconscious sex drive, they were just stuck at one point in their process.

            Then "You have schizophrenia" condemns them to be stuck at that point in their process forever whereas left to nature they might have moved on.

            No-one is as they appear to be. People appear different at different times. A magus can see any level of people he wants to, from the true selves to their deepest qlipphothic regions.

            All is in change. Words fix change and thus people fixate on a certain point, identify and get stuck there.

            That is part of the curse of the grade of magus too. To realise the lies of this world. A magus can cure many diseases by simply seeing and absorbing the qlipphoth and taking nature through its processes internally quite quickly until healing occurs, then seeing that person again and how they've changed.

            That is a temptation too, to be Jesus Christ, heal everyone and kill oneself in the process.

            There are many many aspects to the curse of the grade of magus. Omnipotence is not without a price, even though it is seen to be oh so less important than anyone previous to this grade could possibly know.


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Anthony on Saturday July 21, @01:04AM
              I am against science a lot because for example, Medicine is largely, from a magus pov, complete quackery and charlatanry.

              They will research drugs and new labels, "invent new diseases" as my bassist's girlfriend once said as a potential project for us because we do have quite a twisted sense of humour since we regognise reality as it is................

              They won't realise how damned easy it is to relieve symptoms and give, at the right time, verbal cures, and give love and acceptance and also yes give severity. They won't do that.

              Healing powers are the easiest thing in the world to get and develop and I didn't really want them but got them anyway, as with so many other powers that I forget I even have.

              If I do healing stuff it is kinda accidental and against my will these days. Takes too much toll on me in the darker regions.

              Though sometimes a touch of the hand, purely unknowing, can do a wonder because that's the nagual.

              All the money medicine has wasted and all the appaling pharmaceuticals people are poisoned with, that is all "black magick" and a fall from the way of the tao.

              Re-read the Tao Teh King 1000 times.
              And refuse all magickal powers is the best way.
              As my teacher said - they'll kill ya.


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 21, @11:24AM
            "I mistrust all systematizers..."- Neitzsche.

            "I must create my own system, lest I become slave to another mans."- William Blake.

            The curse of the grade is a non-issue if one has squeezed every last drop of blood into the Cup of Babalon; and consequently given up all that they are. Remember that to successfully navigate the abyss one must abandon the glories of their attainments. Their angel is no longer guide and companion, the lessons and insights that have so empowered and strengthened the individual are stripped away. When one lifts up their head in defiance, resolve chiseled on their face, and refuses to cast off these cloaks of the ego, then great is the risk of becoming a Black Brother. But Do What Thou Wilt.


            • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
              by Anthony on Saturday July 21, @11:41AM
              I think I have sorted this out today, thanks.
              It was because recently I have not been doing my true will, which is far from resting but working, stuff has dammed up and ego inflated as a measure to resist the effects of the resistance.

              I need to wear a silver ankh to finally defeat choronzon. It's a prop but I need it at the moment.

              Cheers.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Anthony on Saturday July 21, @11:45AM
                I did give all my blood and I did really defeat choronzon but current crap is just the result of dabbling around in magick I should have avoided I think, setting the whole thing off again. Hard lessons. Can't really explain. I'll be fine though, am now really.

                I have just kinda experimented a lot, breaking the rules and finding out then the hard way what the rules are. Ultimately it all works out alright though so it can't be so bad.

                At least I've learned better to distinguish true will from false. I think this is all cause I kinda hoped I could collapse the two together, make life easier that way.

                I'm just very new at this level of things.
                It's only recently that anything like a self has been reborn, Osiris risen.


                • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                  by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 21, @12:22PM
                  I had at one point wondered whether instead of invoking my Angel, I had invoked my Dweller on the Threshold; my malignant demon. Consequently my true will was false, and I was a slave to the will of another. Oh what sweet suffering then was the World! Wo! and Death were my lovers and companions. But it all worked out in the end. I admire your dedication, Brother. Good luck with that, Attis. Love is the law, love under will.


              • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
                by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 21, @12:15PM
                "I need to wear a silver ankh to finally defeat choronzon. It's a prop but I need it at the moment"

                Great. My whole symbol system could be veiwed as a construct to prop me up as well.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Azag on Saturday July 21, @10:55AM
    One of the huge dangers Im comming into contact w/presently, is that of trying to equate the person with the prose. Is there some part of "Magus" attainment that makes one sound unmistakably insacure? Does the grade impart the need to wave around ego-defencive re-definition and self-strokage on www.messageboards>? WHATS THE POINT?

    The feeling that Im getting about the self proclaimed Magus(es) out there, especially the ones with telepathic Grade iniation abilities, is that the more you learn - the more you talk. TALK TALK TALK. Very impressive.

    I just wrote two paragraphs. Now Im a Magus too, in fact, I tele-pathetically transmit my Magusness to everyone reading this post, nay everyone reading and all their pets too.

    I'll utter the word now.......Reach!

    Magus, up-up and awaaaaaaaaay...
    aZAG

    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by Azag on Saturday July 21, @11:08AM
      Its hard being Magus.
      Now that Ive confessed, lets talk about me.

      Im afraid that Im becomming a Black Brother? Why would I say that?>? Well, in the past couple weeks Ive felt the increasing need to project myself and my own assumed personal accomplishments onto others in a very straight foreward, hammy, streesed kinda way - and my tummy is starting to hurt. Last night I made some genius fingerpaintings. Im a good dancer when none is watching. More?

      Ok maybe later...

      Magus Awaaaaaay!

      Azag


      • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
        by Azag on Saturday July 21, @11:14AM
        When the moarning sun shines its silken light on my furrowed brow, the be-moanings of time ripple in the aire (ooo), >> I recieve << i recieve - thresh withdraw(l), I must make amends.

        Hawks head riddled 1920's quizzshow from broken jukebox. I cant escape the sky-LIGHT.

        Thanks Azag. No thak you. Azag meet Azag.

        MAGUS aWAAAAAAY!

        93,
        +


        • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
          by Azag on Saturday July 21, @12:15PM
          Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

          i digress.

          Love is the law, love under will,
          Azag


          • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
            by Fra THA;M on Saturday July 21, @12:25PM
            And, Every man and Every Woman Is A Star.
            As well, Kings of the Earth, or Slaves.


            • lets quote more.
              by woof on Sunday July 22, @01:38PM
              god is to live in a dog. but not every kind of dog. Just poodles.


              • Re: lets quote more.
                by Azag on Monday July 23, @01:13AM
                "please keep your hands and feet inside the car."

                "you must be at least this tall '' to ride this attraction."


                • Re: lets quote more.
                  by woof on Monday July 23, @07:08AM
                  whoa. aint you got a dirty mind! ;-)


                  • Re: lets quote more.
                    by Fra THA;M on Monday July 23, @11:04AM
                    "Well if it isn't fat stinking Billyboy, Billygoat and Poison. How art thou, thou globby bottle of cheap stinking chip-oil. Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbes, you eunuch jelly thou."

                    "He knows where They had trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know.."


                    • Re: lets quote more.
                      by Azag on Friday July 27, @08:00AM
                      Fra THA;M - So the first quote is from ClockWorkOrange (a personal fav), whats the second line from?


                      • Re: lets quote more.
                        by woof on Friday July 27, @11:05AM
                        I'm interested too.. sounds kinda dunsany-ish


                        • Re: lets quote more.
                          by Fra THA;M on Friday July 27, @12:33PM
                          Ol freakshow Lovecraft had a penchant for all things Dunsanian. Interesting that you could recognize the influence.


                          • re: its the caps
                            by woof on Saturday July 28, @12:43PM
                            Dunsany would often capitalize pronouns to set them off aka like "Them, "He", "They", etc. and Lovecraft borrowed that, which is smart. If your gonna borrow, borrow from the best, aka like Dunsany and "The King in Yellow" by Robert Chalmer.

                            "Dirty Chobu"
                            "Dirty Shamesh"


                      • Re: lets quote more.
                        by Fra THA;M on Friday July 27, @11:06AM
                        The second quote is from the Dunwich Horror, by Lovecraft.


                        • Re: lets quote more.
                          by Azag on Saturday July 28, @01:31AM
                          so that was the one with the alien in the well, eating kids - and driving mommy's mad...no?

                          I cant believe I missed a H.P. quote. My favorite has always been "The Music of Enrich Zan"


                          • Re: lets quote more.
                            by Fra THA;M on Monday July 30, @12:28PM
                            "So that was the one with the alien in the well, eating kids - and driving mommy's mad...no?"

                            No, It was the story about a cosmic horror, whose secrets were uncovered from a book of ancient evil. It is the story about tentacled horrors, the degenerate small town, and utter insanity; the one where things are stirring in the black gulfs of the cosmic unknown. Geesh (wink wink).


                            • Re: lets quote more.
                              by Parlertriks on Monday July 30, @11:11PM
                              how eldritch!


    • Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
      by woof on Saturday July 28, @12:49PM
      Azag, Thankees!
      I declare as ye all as having Buddha-nature.
      >I just wrote two paragraphs. Now Im a Magus too, in fact, I tele-pathetically transmit my Magusness to everyone reading this post, nay everyone reading and all their pets too.


    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Lurelurken on Thursday August 16, @06:56AM
    Quoth the parrot that is me: "The real danger of the occult is succumbing to any habit. I mean indulgence. That is, to excuse idleness by 'artificial' stimulation: Drugs, biting fingernails (or toenails, if you are into the harder stuff), TV, et cetera. You may get hooked and cooked, but if you are courageous, you face any potential habit and use it like the tool it is.

    In the mystical communities, one should become further aware of the world around/inside oneself, and run the risk of exposing oneself for trials beyond one's strenght. Pride may cause one to think: 'I am strong to deal with anything, look, this drug is not affecting my behaviour. Look how well I cope with heroin! Now, if you'll excuse me for a second, I'll have another dose to prove my superiority to the drug.' (See Diary of a Drug Fiend.)

    Occult communities have a magnetic effect on people who wish to control their lives. They (should) also have a strong catalyzing effect, in that they further one person to glory and another to destruction. Weeding out the weak, in other words, more effectively than 'common' society.
    Expect to find more failures and more successes there, else it were not Occult!"

    Re: Real Dangers of the Occult
    by Javelin on Thursday January 10, @04:55PM
    "Reel dangers, doo-dah, doo-dah..."

    Umm...:
    -Wasn't the Left Hand Path & Black Brothers
    coined by Blablavatsky?
    -Has Castaneda not been debunked as a fraud?

    The art of magic can be stressfull,
    and those seeking refuge in a magical worldview
    can externalise their inner conflicts,
    thus poisoning lofty (or not) intentions.
    Confusion thru too much symbolism,
    seeing signs and omens or wanting to discern
    same, emotional feelings of impending doom
    or good fortune (sign of being keyed up at
    an emotional level), the list can go on.

    Pursuit of the magical arts is just the little
    push that makes the vulnerable and acutely
    sensitive go over the edge, into an abyss
    of misguided ego whitout any foothold
    for innate sense of proportion.

    Ther are ofcourse just as much risks in
    fun endeavours as taking drugs.
    (Homer S.:"Drugs, hmm..." *drool*)

    Jus'my 2 Eurocents worth, zeJav_

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