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  The Seven Rules of Nationalism
Social Justice Posted by Mordecai on August 18, 2001 @ 10:08 AM
from the turfin-safari dept.

or,

A Beginner's Guide to Ethnic Politics

  1. If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us -- you are merely occupiers.
  2. If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us -- borders must not be changed.
  3. If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us -- it is the Cradle of our Nation.
  4. If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us -- they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
  5. If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us -- they must be protected against your oppression.
  6. Our dream of greatness is Historical Necessity, yours is Fascism.
  7. All of the above rules apply to us but not to you.
-- Unknown (cited in Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War by Stuart J. Kaufman)



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    Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
    by Shasu Ma'akheru on Sunday August 19, @02:29PM
    Don't forget rule number 8:

    8. If clueless American politicians become involved, they will enormously complicate matters by dwelling on an imaginary "common ground" between two parties whose only common ground is an absolute and unshakeable commitment to destroy each other.


    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by me on Sunday August 19, @05:56PM
      Or the Anti-Nationalist rule-

      Since we now and still have IT we have yet a stinking clue what to do with it.

      And-

      Gentlemen! It's time to start naming new holidays!

      I nominate the Sara Lee Senior Management Gets in touch with Lower Management Day.

      And the Atomic Bombs Sitting at the Bottom of the Ocean Week.


    Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
    by Mordecai on Sunday August 19, @07:33PM
    Somehow this got a bit scrambled (looking at my original, it doesn't seem to have been me, but maybe I posted it incorrectly). Rule number 7 should be number 6, and "All of the above..." should be number 7.

    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by Xnoubis on Monday August 20, @09:33AM
      That's what I thought I saw, but I could easily have been mistaken. I've fixed it now, I think?


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by Mordecai on Monday August 20, @10:41AM
        Yes, it's right now.


    Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
    by me on Monday August 20, @01:11PM
    LOL Have you seen the present day nationalist groups -as a front- promoting Bolshevism? What's that all about?

    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by Mordecai on Monday August 20, @08:22PM
      For a Russian Marxist-Leninist there's no conflict between Communism and Russian nationalism. Likewise for a Maoist and Chinese nationalism. Castro in Cuba, Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, Kim Il Sung in North Korea, and Enver Hoxha in Albania are all examples of "Bolshevik" dictators (though perhaps Ho wasn't exactly a dictator) who are primarily nationalists.


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by me on Tuesday August 21, @08:02AM
        Don't confuse nationalism with state domination. There are many great forms, as found here- http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook17.html
        which is quite an interesting read. I think this communistic brand of nationalism is giving it a bad name (obvious after reading materials from above link).

        Any thoughts on this?


        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
          by me on Tuesday August 21, @11:25AM
          I think it may be said that overall the 'One who comes after' is in a higher sense all fighting -as do Thelemites fight - for the same goal, which is not unlike this here http://members.netnormal.com/library/litsun_4.htm

          Am I wrong? Is not Thelema a cosmic philosophy to discover Truth and thereby end world slavery?


          • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
            by nexist on Wednesday August 22, @08:25AM
            "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." AL II:58

            That would depend upon you interpretation of this and other verses of an apparently similar, contradictory or mitigating vein.


            • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
              by me on Wednesday August 22, @09:41AM
              Whereas overall it means Conquer.


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by nexist on Wednesday August 22, @12:51PM
                Perhaps, but in what sense and whom/what?


                • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                  by me on Wednesday August 22, @07:55PM
                  -"that is enough."


        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
          by Mordecai on Wednesday August 22, @11:18AM
          I certainly don't confuse the two. That's why I didn't use Trotsky or the Spartacists as examples. They are communists who clearly support state domination while rejecting nationalism.


    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by nexist on Wednesday August 22, @08:19AM
      Fascism and National Socialism are little more than Communism scaled back to the National level. One is International, the other National. Communism is based upon the illusion of sameness, Nationalism on the illusion of difference.

      I assume that you are referring to www.nationalbolshevik.com. A member of the '3rd Postitionists' (yet another wonderful term co-opted -- between the Commies & the Nationalists, its a wonder we have any untainted words at all).

      If you really want your head to hurt, try this one.


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by me on Wednesday August 22, @09:31AM
        A quote from Nazi.org:

        "The Libertarian National Socialist Green Party is an independent political movement dedicated to restoring autonomy to the citizen, equity to the opportunity presented within society, a change in attitudes toward normative objectives, a reduction of legal complexity and applications to the individual, a focus on ensuring rights and freedom for all Americans, an environmental policy which puts our children before our immediate needs, an immigrant naturalization plan, and a return to the focus on justice and individual rights in America."

        This sums up many of the things that I'd like to see take effect. What's wrong with that? I think the above is the only idea that makes any sense.


        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
          by Xnoubis on Wednesday August 22, @09:53AM
          This was all raked over in the Beast Bay thread, "Crowley: Libertarian or Fascist?" The short answer is: there are a number of sensible things advocated by that group, but a lot of unsavory ones as well, up to and including a "Mexican genocide."


          • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
            by me on Wednesday August 22, @03:22PM
            "up to and including a "Mexican genocide"

            As it reads: a hypothetical situation. Current news says: Spain intercepted 800 Africans attempting to invade their country. Would you rather that National borders were nonexistant? WHAT would your citizens think? and WOULD you ever be seen strolling the streets past 9:00 p.m.?


            • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
              by Mordecai on Wednesday August 22, @03:38PM
              >Would you rather that National borders were nonexistant?

              Yes, most definitely. And I'm not alone in that. Anyone who takes Liber OZ seriously believes that people have the right to move as they will on the face of the earth. Don't you?


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Wednesday August 22, @07:50PM
                It has nothing whatsoever to DO with Liber Oz. Youre country WOULD PERISH!


                • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                  by Mordecai on Thursday August 23, @09:57AM
                  Nonsense. A free flow of labor around the world (just like money) would be good both economically and culturally.


                  • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                    by me on Thursday August 23, @12:02PM
                    Is that why the world is in a depression?

                    You're argument is baseless, esp. now with so many layoffs- it's like you live in a cave. The old propaganda is that sweatshops and slave labour will spark the economy, that abundance of lowest class workers are a good thing (for welfare).


                    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                      by Mordecai on Thursday August 23, @12:47PM
                      Insults notwithstanding, your assertions don't equal facts. It's the illegal status of immigrant workers that keep them from receiving the labor protection available under our laws governing wages and working conditions. Just like laws against drugs don't stop drug use, but make it more dangerous for consumers and profitable for criminals, the laws against free movement of workers just make them the prey of criminal smugglers and commercial exploiters.


                      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                        by me on Thursday August 23, @01:40PM
                        [In the Shells]



                        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                          by Mordecai on Thursday August 23, @02:11PM
                          The quality of your argumentation stuns me into bemused silence.


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by nexist on Thursday August 23, @09:17AM
                Perhaps you could expand on why the two are linked, or how Borders -- a codification of the area of influence of a cultural entity (typically based on ethnicity) is intrinsicly a barrier to the right to move on the face of the earth?

                Further, Oz is not (to my knowledge) a Class 'A' document (does anyone know its official classification -- I think it is 'E'), & thus should be seen as indicative or ideal rather than absolute.

                Finally, if it is my will to not have to worry about the vagaries associated with illicit immigration, do you support my right to kill the illegal immigrants?


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by Burke Devilin on Thursday August 30, @11:51AM
                "Anyone who takes Liber OZ seriously believes that people have the right to move as they will on the face of the earth. Don't you?"

                Which is why you leave your door unlocked so anyone can move across into the floor of your home any time it is their will, right?

                Funny how people with these attitudes never really commit.


                • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                  by Mordecai on Thursday August 30, @01:23PM
                  Actually, I do leave my door unlocked. I just wouldn't give my address to you. Funny how people who don't even know you still make all sorts of unwarranted assumptions about you.


            • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
              by Xnoubis on Wednesday August 22, @03:43PM
              a hypothetical situation

              Any group that would consider genocide as an even hypothetical solution for anything doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, in my opinion.


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Wednesday August 22, @07:53PM
                X, you obviously have no understanding of politics, or adult conversation for that matter.

                "Next thing you know they'll take my thought away!" -Mustaine


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Wednesday August 22, @07:54PM
                X, you obviously have no understanding of politics, or adult conversation for that matter.

                "Next thing you know they'll take my thoughts away!" -Mustaine


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Thursday August 23, @07:18AM
                http://toogoodreports.com/column/general/baldwin/082201.htm


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Thursday August 23, @07:22AM
                http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by me on Wednesday August 22, @09:38AM
        NS is merely a medium to bring about change. It's policies in essence are more Nationalist, that is, it relies on "mob rule" by calling into question what the weight of the people want and then initializes it. Obviously it is more an open forum than Communism could ever be, and to place no difference between Nationalism or NS and Communism seems truly absurd. Democracy, especially on the international level, has much more in common with Communism than anything else.


        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
          by nexist on Wednesday August 22, @12:47PM
          First I should apologize for confusing Economic Systems and Governmental systems.

          The Government associated with Communism matches the system utilized by the Third Reich -- even down to the "democratic" vehicle (i.e. voting and the like). Socially, both utilized Art, Myth and Militarism to gather public support. The actual similarities between the governments of the USSR & NS Germany are legion. This fact was even commented upon by ideologues in both Russia and Germany.

          The economic systems of both Fascism & National Socialism were hybrids of Capitalism & Communism, allowing private property and profit so long as it served the needs of the state.

          Fascism implemented this via corpratism, and the 3rd Reich via regulations (i.e. the same mode used by the U.S.). I recommend Payne's "History of Fascism, 1914-1945" (at Amazon)


          • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
            by me on Wednesday August 22, @03:15PM
            "The Government associated with Communism matches the system utilized by the Third Reich -- even down to the "democratic" vehicle (i.e. voting and the like)."

            This statement shows a complete lack of understanding.

            "Socially, both utilized Art,"

            How?

            "Myth"

            WHat myth? (You must mean post-war! -Everything before that was VERY real.)

            "and Militarism"

            Nope. More shoot-em-up-spirit was imposed by Imperial England, and drunken, fat-a$$ Chuchill. Only Germany expressed concern to end the war.

            " to gather public support. The actual similarities between the governments of the USSR & NS Germany are legion."

            Perhaps in your own delusion.

            I might add that if it weren't for NS Germany's front against Russia you'd all be saluting pictures of Stalin. Moreover, look at your current environment/government. You think it's bad now: Wait: It can only get worse.


            • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
              by nexist on Thursday August 23, @09:09AM
              This statement shows a complete lack of understanding

              Uh-huh. Since I have been researching Fascism & National Socialism since 1984 as a personal inquiry, perhaps you could provide a more concrete justification for your disagreement. Remember Librae:
              The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.
              -- Liber Librae 15


              [Nexist]"Socially, both utilized Art,"
              [Me]How?


              If you were as well versed in these systems as you pretend, you would know that Art was utilized as a primary motivator of patriotism and unity in both the USSR and the Third Reich -- specifically Music, Drama, Painting & Sculpture.

              [Nexist]"Myth"
              [Me]WHat myth? (You must mean post-war! -Everything before that was VERY real.)


              <Sigh>All societies are based upon Myth (the first being why this society is "better" than the others). The Myths of NS & USSR are many (& in fact I have already referenced two of the base myths previously). As far as war propaganda, that is another issue entirely, & it started around WWI.

              [Nexist]"and Militarism"
              [Me]Nope. More shoot-em-up-spirit was imposed by Imperial England, and drunken, fat-a$$ Chuchill. Only Germany expressed concern to end the war.


              Are you truly this dense, or are you just trying to annoy me? The ideal of NS is the Warrior hero, boldy defending the homeland from imperialism, etc etc. Private life was militarised & military parades & honorifics were common events.

              Personally, I have nothing against Militarism, but when laid upon a poor myth (Mystical Racial Superiority) it decays into baseness.

              I might add that if it weren't for NS Germany's front against Russia you'd all be saluting pictures of Stalin. Moreover, look at your current environment/government. You think it's bad now: Wait: It can only get worse.

              <yawn> Oh gee, I am cowed by the irrelevent assertions of apocalyptic gloom. I cannot decide whether your argument is flawed because of its Appeal to Consequences or Slippery Slope.


              • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                by me on Thursday August 23, @10:08AM
                Ok, you win. ANyone who resembles more than that of a mere stick puppet (-which strings only you probably would like to work) and who as an actual thought is absolutely EVIL. Similarly, only nexus knows the "real truth", which he/she proudly exposes with jouvenile hums and sighs, and ever more childish preachings from so-called "holy books" by the idol god of delusional nitwits.


                • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                  by nexist on Thursday August 23, @10:41AM
                  Medic ;)

                  If you discount the Holy Books so thoroughly, how can you consider yourself to be a Thelemite?

                  Btw, it is Nexist (note the correct spelling) and I am a Male, 34, married with 3 children (boys) and a fourth on the way (which ultrasound reports as another boy).


                  • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                    by me on Thursday August 23, @11:57AM
                    Ok. How can you drag them through the mud as you do as consider yourself a thelemite?


                    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                      by nexist on Thursday August 23, @12:36PM
                      Which them & what mud?

                      Until you clarify, I can only go with the stock answer that when I consciously accepted the law of Thelema, I in no way gave up my right to hold my own opinions, nor to compose those opinions upon interpretation of observed phenomena, historical discourse or the experiences of others.

                      Further, I do not recall having, at any point, abdicated my right to level criticism upon myself, others or institutions -- so long as such criticism is based upon the facts as I understand them, or opinions derived from those facts.

                      toodles


                      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                        by King Knave on Friday August 24, @12:55AM
                        Who Is Me?
                        and Why is Me?

                        And We are All Together.



                        To Kill is Bad.

                        Man.

                        Except in Carlsbad...Out West.


                        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
                          by me on Friday August 24, @11:55AM
                          Who Is Me?

                          You are someone that got scammed.

                          and Why is Me?

                          For the furtherance of NWO BS.

                          And We are All Together

                          Blind leading the blind.

                          To Kill is Bad.

                          But to die a slave is pathetic.


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by Jeffrey Sommer on Tuesday September 25, @03:19AM
        Whee! The National Revolutionary Front sounds a lot like Orwell's Ingsoc Party, and Nazi.org is as confusing a mishmosh as I've ever seen. You can't be a Nazi AND a Libertarian(though a Nazi and a Green IS theoretically possible)! Meanwhile, I believe firmly in both free-enterprise capitalism and nationalism as the best systems that presently exist. Since this post is on nationalism, I'll limit my comments to it. Why nationalism? Because total anarchy cannot defend itself and multi-nationalism always ends up with one nation dictating to the others. And, no, I have no desire whatsoever to be ruled by the U.N; Washington is difficult enough to swallow. By the way, I support Israel's right to exist, and I think the U.S. must stop bankrolling them--and everyone else.


    Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
    by Xnoubis on Friday August 24, @09:31AM
    By a remarkable coincidence (or is it?), Alex Burns of disinfo.com just posted a series of links regarding Borderhack 2.0 to the spiraldynamics Yahoo Group. Borderhack is a festival/camp dedicated to understanding and eventually erasing the U.S./Mexican border.

    Borderhack: No One Is Illegal

    Now, Borderhack 2.0 has arrived

    Ready to Delete the Border

    Borderhack 2.0: Barbed and Unwired

    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by me on Friday August 24, @10:20AM
      Hey! I'm all for dissolving the border, because I know what it will result in, and it's what should and must happen -given human history, and justice for all- is nothing short of a brutal war.

      The weak of all races -even my own- shall perish, and a new solution -destruction of all stale and false values shall arise once more.


      • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
        by Screaming Lord Magus on Saturday August 25, @03:13PM
        Weaker than the weakest race is the weakness that lies of the heart of every race that is not human.



        • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
          by me on Saturday August 25, @03:46PM
          Now you -whoever you are- are impersonating a Magus who you don't even know. Very bold! AS F.N. says: human is contempt.


          • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
            by S.L.M.&C.D.t.G. on Monday August 27, @09:43AM
            I know you mean the syphilitic philosopher but I can help thinking "French Nazi".


    • Re: The Seven Rules of Nationalism
      by nexist on Friday August 24, @03:56PM
      I will try and read these, but I doubt it will make me want to increase our citizenship when the state has problems fulfilling its obligations to the current citizenry.

      Eradication of borders will do little (if anything) to eradicate the discrepencies between the "classes". Controlled influx for a stable base -- with emphasis on creating that stable base -- seems the more logical choice.



     
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