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  The Destruction of Eric Pryor
Self Realization Posted by Virbius on August 25, 2001 @ 04:28 PM
from the saved-by-the-hell dept.

What went wrong with Eric Pryor's salvation?

On Halloween night of 1990, evangelist Larry Lea brought a massive Evangelical Crusade to the San Francisco Civic Auditorium, promoting a world-wide spiritual cleansing program that he dubbed "Spiritual Warfare". Many other high-profile Bay Area evangelists were on hand for this event, including Jubilee Christian Center's Dick Bernal, who was also one of the pioneers and founders of the "Spiritual Warfare" movement, along with Lea and other ministers.

A very visible but dubious Pagan named Eric Pryor made a dramatic showing outside the Civic Auditorium that night, burning Bibles, casting curses, making a big show for the television cameras that promoted his image nationally (ABC News) and even internationally. Eric had been appearing on various talk shows and generating publicity in newspapers and magazines for a number of months promoting his protest of the Evangelical event.

On Halloween night 1990, Eric Pryor became a Christian.

That Fateful Night and the Events That Followed

I was one of the people outside the Civic Auditorium that night myself, handing out laser printed copies of "The Hymn to Pan" to Christians and non-Christians alike, but I don't recall seeing Eric Pryor or his demonstration, though there were an awful lot of ashes, burned candles, and various other trappings of a large Pagan protest littered about in the area in front of the Civic. I did not hear of Eric Pryor or his story until a couple of months later.

I became a Christian myself in unrelated circumstances on November 17th of that year. Upon attending Christian Churches for pretty much the first time in my life, I recall hearing rather a lot about this Pryor character -- "The Witch Who Switched." One night in early 1991 while attending Jubilee Christian center in San Jose, near the end of the service Pastor Dick Bernal began saying that there was someone else in the room, a former pagan, who was struggling with issues of "Kinky Pagan Sex." He basically began reading my mind, exposing all of my secrets to the congregation. This went on for an embarrassingly long time. He continued to say that this person was in the room and needed to come to the altar for "healing," at one point, even looking right at me. Eventually, wanting to just end this and go home more than anything else, I walked to the altar and knelt to be prayed for. The audience gave me a "standing ovation" and I felt more than a little pissed-off and manipulated about the whole thing. (It has been pointed out to me that this is something of a well known parlor trick method of "mind-reading" since nearly everyone is always thinking of sex.)

As I rose from the "laying on of hands" by several of the Associate Pastors of JCC I felt a pair of arms embrace me from behind, and a voice began to speak into my ear. It was Eric Pryor.

I knew Eric for a period of time, although I went my own ways wandering and searching for God -- at one point studying Catholicism for three years with intent to postulate at a Monastery in Big Sur as a Benedictine. Jubilee Christian Center was, and still is, far from my cup of tea. But in all of my experiences with Eric, I never experienced him as anything but a nice guy. A little goofy, a little high strung on occasions, but never anything but nice.

Jubilee paid something on the order of $1000/week to prostitute Eric as an evangelical puppet and a Junior Pastor. Even as a Christian, Eric discussed Goetia and Abramelin magic with me, though urged me that it was in confidence, since he couldn't be caught discussing that kind of stuff by the other pastors of Jubilee. Eric once projected an image into my head, a vivid image of a meerschaum pipe and an oil-painted hand in the style of Michelangelo, and said to me, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it!" It was like a little gift.

An overwhelming majority of people tell a different kind of tale about him.

After the events of the previous story, Eric began to experience a very disturbing downward spiral that was documented in the Silicon Valley Metro.

I read a half page article in a local paper in Aptos, California in 1999 about an incident where Eric was picked up on a combination of Jack Daniels, LSD, Heroin and Cocaine, screaming that he was a Satanist and a Black Magician, wielding a knife and shouting that he was going to kill his neighbor. I am unaware of Eric's whereabouts today, or if he is even still alive. It seems almost certain that he did some prison time, he may still be in prison somewhere, I don't know.

One thing that a number of people (who did not know Eric as well as I) have concluded is that apparently he was a Christian before the "conversion" and the whole thing was a hoax. I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty this is not the case. On 10/31/90, Eric Pryor had long, stringy bleached blonde hair, was thin as a rail, and was quite freaky looking. He looked like -- and apparently was -- a heroin addict. It has been fairly well documented in a number of places, on the Internet and elsewhere, that the motivation behind Pryor's "conversion" was at least as much money as legitimate evangelism. I have every reason to believe that Eric's acceptance of Jesus and his teachings was every bit as authentic as my own, and that he was a pawn in a very evil scheme to use legitimately authentic spiritual awakenings for the creation of wealth and power for the evangelists.

It is really hard to say in hindsight what would have happened to Eric had he not been "converted" so manipulatively, for such obviously devious reasons. I can't help but think that Eric would be a lot better off today if they would have just left him alone.

The Argument

"Spiritual Warfare" teaches evangelical Christians a variety of Theurgic techniques not only very similar to, but in fact clearly stolen from, Golden Dawn and Ceremonial Magic traditions, such as the LBRP. If the Christians performing these acts had any idea of their origins they would most certainly be horrified beyond belief, since they are simultaneously taught to view Magic as Evil, a thing most surely determined to cast one's very soul into Hell.

An essential use of these Theurgic techniques, in the domain of Lea and Bernal's Spiritual Warfare, is to claim souls for (and I emphasize here) their interpretation of Christ. A key element in the Spiritual Warfare ideology is the idea that we are not free to think for ourselves, and the degree of intent and emphasis placed by these "Christian Magicians" upon liberating us from our freedom of choice is quite extraordinary.

It is with a fair degree of embarrassment and horror that I relate the fact that I was convinced by Pastor Bernal to burn my own Occult library in early 1991. Obviously my current view is that this was wrong with a capital WRONG. Burning books of any sort is only a gnat's hair away from witch hunting and lynching in grossness and error. Several of the books that were burned in this sad, fateful event were priceless beyond compare and simply irreplaceable. I will never forget this or the horror and error of this act. By telling this story, I want to point out the high degree of persuasion and mind-control that is practiced in these situations, though this should really not be much surprise to the readers of this article, since I have heard a number of very similar stories shared by my Thelemic brothers and sisters.

It seems to me that some of Christ Jesus' central teachings concerned Freedom (Luke 6:1-5, Luke 6:37-38) and Non-Judgement (John 8:3-11). He also spent a good deal of his energy denouncing the religious fundamentalism of his own day, primarily a stuffy and hypocritical religious sect known as the Pharisees. How could these people (Lea and Bernal) have gotten Christ's message so wrong? Could they have possibly gotten it more backwards?

In finding my way back full circle to the place I was when I started (Thelema, Paganism, and Wicca), I have not found reason to let go of Christ or his teachings. I understand that there are some quite difficult doctrinal contradictions between the two systems. I have been able to answer these contradictions somewhat conclusively in my own mind; unfortunately they amount to interpretation of Liber Al, which I would like to avoid at this time.

I learned quite a lot about my own "Shadow Projection" concerning these evangelists in the discussion "Dangerous Art", out of which this topic sprang, and which is also a very worthwhile addition to this topic as auxiliary information. It seems to me, more than just a little, that these Christians should be encouraged to dabble in Thelema, as they already are quite comfortable dabbling in Magick.

It also seems to me that if any worthwhile progress is to be made in these avenues, toning down the hatred (which I myself still need so much work on) and getting down to the business of communication and understanding will be indispensable tools in the work.

In conclusion: I have a particular interpretation of a Biblical scripture that I feel quite certain the truth of, but which many orthodox Christians would shudder in horror at. Saint Paul (who on the whole I take with a rather large salt mine) stated in one of the epistolary letters, "In the station you were when saved, in that station stay", which I take to mean, "once a Witch, always a Witch." I feel I learned the truth of this from hard-earned personal experience, mainly the burning of my occult library, which I now view with utter horror, my own horror being the answer to the orthodox horror at my interpretation of "their" scripture.



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    Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
    by jazzcat on Saturday August 25, @09:18PM
    ...what i cannot figure, is how after all that
    you still cling to the hoax of jesus christ!

    as if there is one iota of proof that there ever was such a person,

    considering all the mythological background
    to such an amalgamated creature!

    see, you could be yourself without still clinging
    to bible propaganda churned out by Rome 200+ years ago!

    what about the Nag Hamadi?, or Tomas or Q

    I don't want another mental duel with you
    so i will bow out after this post?
    you are a very intelligent person
    and we all have to deal with our own
    dark night of the soul, my feeling is
    that if there was a jew, that was crusified
    named jesus, then he sure started one hell
    of a ball of wax, but with the powers that be
    holding all the score cards, and the history
    of political intregue being what it is i think
    we are missing the cosmic barn by several light years..

    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
      by Virbius on Sunday August 26, @12:21PM
      I don't quite know how to answer this. I feel like, if I were trying to evangelise Christ to you, which I am not, then I might have some answer to this. But since the real thrust of the argument has much more to do with what I feel is a terrifying violation of freewill on the part of the evangelists, whether or not you choose to believe in Christ has little bearing on the argument in my opinion. Therefore, I am somewhat... speechless.


      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
        by the Reverend Rob on Sunday August 26, @09:10PM
        Of course it has nothing to do with the post. The absolutely most evil thing you can do as an occultist, Thelemite, pagan, or alt.sex person is dare to mention the character of Christ in something other than a derogatory light. Even in a narrative such as you've posted, the knee-jerk reaction will always criticize you for daring to not have a problem with that pesky Jesus guy.

        I find it downright hilarious myself.


        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
          by Virbius on Sunday August 26, @10:02PM
          Nowhere/Catastrophe


        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
          by Shasu Ma'akheru on Sunday August 26, @10:40PM
          Conversely, there is also a reactionary faction that believes in treating Christianity with kid gloves, as if it were a member of the civilized family of religions, and inviting it to dinner. When it proves to be a monstrous guest, devouring its neighbor to one side and vomiting the remains onto the neighbor on the other side, we are told that politely showing it to the door and asking it to never return would be sinking to its level. And here we were, thinking we were extraordinarily genteel for suppressing the urge to cave its head in with the flat side of a shovel.

          If it were a merely political movement we were discussing -- a political movement that inflicted fifteen continuous centuries of totalitarian rule and genocide on several continents -- there would be no one calling for polite tolerance. But perhaps it is easier to dismiss the modern devotees of Hitler and Stalin because their crimes were so much briefer and smaller, and therefore easier to conceptualize. Christianity, on the other hand, was so vast, so sophisticated, and so complete that it is difficult to imagine, living in our unprecedentedly quiet neighborhoods, that such a monstrosity could ever exist, much less that it did so successfully for longer than any political empire, and that it still waits in the wings for a second chance.

          When some self-proclaimed pagan -- who should have known better -- gets mixed up in evangelical Christianity and allows himself to be led into book burning and other depraved acts, it is not expecting too much for us to shake our heads in sorrow and wonderment. But when this same quasi-pagan comes along, still carrying Jesus in his heart, and begins spouting crap about being manipulated as if it were a form of involuntary mind control when he was in fact only talked into Christianity using tactics that date back two thousand years, it is expecting way too damn much for anyone to pat him on the head and say, "Poor baby, did the mean old Christians screw you up?"

          It is possible to avoid the excesses of older religions without sinking into thoughtless credulity.


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by the Reverend Rob on Sunday August 26, @10:59PM
            The problem is Christianity is already invited to the table in Thelema; it's part and parcel of the package deal.

            Since it's there, and no amount of whining or moaning or thoughts of beating it with shovels is going to make it go away, there's no reason to not treat it as you would any other religion.

            A King can afford to be gracious, can't they?


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by Virbius on Sunday August 26, @11:30PM
            Ehem... I want to point out that in the referenced article "Dangerous Art" I was accused of "letting my conspiracy theory blind me" for suggesting that these evangelists were anything but dinner-worthy....


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by Anathema Maranatha on Monday August 27, @11:24PM
              Are you referring to my post where I said:

              "Just seems to me like your underlying conspiracy theory here is growing a bit bigger than it needs to. To even imply that Moynihan is in any way in cahoots with the likes of Bob Larson is just totally ridiculous. The fact that Larson praised anything by Michael Moynihan or even knows who he is is quite funny... your suspicions seem to be blinding you from the humour and irony of it all."

              If you are referring to that post, then you are applying it here totally out of context. My comments were directed at your determination to slander Michael Moynihan and had nothing to do with the worthiness or non-worthiness of evangelists or Christians.


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Virbius on Monday August 27, @11:58PM
                I was vageuly referring to your comment, which was a response to my comment, that, if you'll allow me to make my point clear, criticized Moynihan and yourself for not realizing the extent of the potential evil involved in this scenario, which is being even more vehemently shared here by Shasu than even myself.

                THIS is pretty much the point I was trying to make in that argument.

                Given the fierce, rabid, inconsolable voice that Shasu is giving to his viewpoint, would you still say that there is some "humour" or "irony" in this situation that I seem to be missing? A situation that clearly is bursting at the seems with sincere potential for both social unrest and actual violence, the degree of which, in my observation, is great enough to outweigh any previous altercation of it's sort in history?

                Is this REALLY something I should be seeing as more funny or ironic? Or is the point that I had tried to make starting to make more sense now, I hope...


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @12:09AM
                p.s. Keep in mind that sources I am unable to disclose have stated that Moynihan and others from his "scene" have appeared on Larson's radio show and participated in his "research" of them and their "scene". Given the "research" that Jubilee Christian Center had Eric Pryor doing I am fairly terrified by the implications of this. However, as stated previously, I think that dialogue is good, even necessary, given the caveat of understanding how dangerous a powder-keg this is.

                My current view, having changed radically in the course of the previous discussion by my acceptance of my own "shadow projection" and hyper-critical nature, is that somehow this bomb needs to be defused or it will go off, and in such a manner that we will all certainly be harmed by it.

                I think that Xnoubis offered the idea "what needs to happen is to reduce Christian Fundamentalism AND Anti-Christian violence".

                If this situation is allowed to continue on it's present course unchallenged, the result will almost certainly be identical in every way to The Apocalypse as described in The Bible. I am of the opinion that this can be avoided, but not by ignoring it, or (pardon me for criticising you) seeing it somehow as "Funny". If ignored this situation has the potential to destroy our very world.


        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
          by Mordecai on Sunday August 26, @10:42PM
          We ought to put together a page of Christ-praising quotes from the "Gospel of St. Bernard Shaw" and put it on Beast Bay and other Thelemic discussion groups without immediately identifying it as Crowley :-)


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by the Reverend Rob on Sunday August 26, @11:23PM
            Throw that in a stew with the many pro-Christ statements in MTP, and this site alone could probably destroy the entirety of modern Thelema as practiced by suburban Satanists.


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by the Reverend Rob on Saturday April 27, @12:12AM
              Throw that in a stew with the many pro-Christ statements in MTP, and this site alone could probably destroy the entirety of modern Thelema as practiced by suburban Satanists.


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by Tim Maroney on Monday August 27, @09:15AM
            To be fair, one should juxtapose them with "The World's Tragedy" &c.

            Tim


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by Shasu Ma'akheru on Monday August 27, @11:39AM
              To be really fair, one ought to include Ben Rowe's suggestion that Crowley's failure to purge himself entirely of the Christian world-view was the proximate cause of his decline and failure in the second half of his life. One also ought to note the distinction between Perdurabo's opinions -- many of which, including but not limited to his brainless sexism, racism, and feudal/fascist political fantasies, would be rejected by any intelligent modern -- and the received wisdom of the Class A documents. Crowley was a prophet, not a messiah.

              There is a certain faction that seems to view Christianity as a legitimate religion of the Aeon of Osiris, but it is not. Christianity is a Qliphothic force that usurped the Osirian era and the west and nearly destroyed our civilization. Crowley once said that we are to refrain from kneeling before the gods because the Powers who gave us the ability to walk like to see us use it; Christianity is a product of the Powers who would like to see us go back to crawling. Gentility is a poor excuse for suicidal behavior, and failure to recognize emnity does not make it any less dangerous.


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Xnoubis on Monday August 27, @01:04PM
                As I see it, there's a distinction to be drawn between Christianity as it exists now and the tragic historical record of Western Civilization in which Christianity played a key role. "Our" history is a history of power -- largely a history of the abuse of power -- that began long before Christianity. What's particularly galling is that Christianity presented itself as an alternative to such abuse, but was in fact used as a tremendously effective instrument for abuse.

                But all this has been widely acknowledged for centuries by now. As far as the reaction against Christianity is concerned, AC's work may not have been the beginning of the final battle against Christianity that he might have imagined, but rather the tail end of the Reformation, the last outcry before it became completely obvious that Christianity as the controlling ideology of society was going away for good.

                Yes, there is still far too much oppression going on in the name of Christianity, but the situation has changed over the years, and there's a question as to whether Crowley's attitude towards the Christian religion is still appropriate in the present day. My feeling is that a new approach is called for. Christianity may still be the most powerful oppressive religion in the world, but it wanes in the industrialized nations outside of the U.S., while fundamentalist Islam grows strong in many parts of the underdeveloped world. Secular materialism has a far stronger hold over the dominant culture than it had in Crowley's time (which brings its own shortcomings into higher relief), while new strains of a more tolerant and insightful Christianity (Matthew Fox, Marianne Williamson, et. al.) gain greater prominence.

                So my preference in these times is to distinguish between Christianity as represented in Thelemic doctrine (the embodiment of all that we oppose -- the "Synagogue of Satan," except that we have nothing against either Satan or synagogues) and Christianity as we encounter it in the world, which is more varied and complex. I feel that what we should be opposing in the world is fundamentalism of all kinds, whether Christian, Islamic, or materialist (not to mention Thelemic, which is yet another problem).

                That's not to say I don't support, for instance, confronting Christian pro-lifers with the murders and atrocities committed in the name of Christ. Far from it. But I also feel that it's appropriate to acknowledge that when some moderate Protestant denomination begins to, say, recognize gay and lesbian marriages, they are taking a small step in the right direction -- instead of tarring every manifestation that calls itself Christian with exactly the same brush.

                There is a certain faction that seems to view Christianity as a legitimate religion of the Aeon of Osiris, but it is not.

                I think I see what you're saying, but the way I view it, it's more that Western culture was never well-suited for Piscean energy, possibly because it found such a niche in Aries; the Western manifestation of the Piscean age was corrupted by our unwillingness to let go of Aries. Small wonder that we've been straining to move beyond Pisces since the Renaissance -- we're just not very good at it.

                What I think we should be encouraging is Christianity developing the ability to better serve those who are drawn to it, while not getting in the way of the rest of us.


                • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                  by Virbius on Monday August 27, @06:34PM
                  My interest in writing this article and participating in the discussion is what I would consider to be Thelemic scholarship. I had origanally posted this article under the category "General Thelema". Just like "Dangerous Art" I see this as a profound arena for the theoretical analysis of root Thelemic issues, like

                  a) What are the limits of freedom of Will in Thelema (if there are any), and

                  b) How do I handle people or institutions who clearly have no problem crossing the line into what I consider to be "my territory" (essentially my own Will) and presuming to dictate to me what my Will should, or should not be.

                  Another issue has come up along the way which I had not specifically anticipated (call me a fool for not forseeing it) and that is the whole issue regarding whether or not Jesus can be a part of any true Thelemite's study or interest. The truth is that I have strong reason for believing that this issue cannot be resolved, and that the only really solid conclusion that can be made is that it certainly is not my business to determine this answer for anyone else, and it is the business of no one beside myself and my HGA (possibly God if He She or It has any interest in the matter) to determine the answer to this conundrum for me.

                  I would go even further than Xnoubis has in making distinctions. While I basically agree with the distinctions that he has drawn, his wording suggests that the distinction is only between "the historical Christianity" and "Christianity as practiced today which is more widely varied". I would say that Christianity has been pretty widely varied throughout history.

                  Lumping Francis of Asissi, Therese of Lisiuex, Hildegarde of Bingen, Jacob Boehme, Miguel de Molinos and St. John of the Cross together with General Orthodox Catholicism, Protestant Christianity and the Spiritual Warfare movement is an even greater error than lumping Crowley and Thelema in with Z Budapest and Anton LeVey. Every one of these people and traditions have very distinct characteristics and to make a sweeping generalization about any of them outside of "they are all humans" or "they are all different" would in my opinion be at least shortsighted, at most, just wrong.

                  I will even go further and make a distinction between

                  a) My own belief in and relationship to Christ and his teachings on the one hand, and

                  b) Christianity.

                  I don't recall once using that word in any recent discussion on beastbay ("Dangerous Art" and here) in relation to my own beliefs. My reason for making this distinction, and as a general rule avoiding the use of the word "Christianity" in relation to my own beliefs, is the fact that there are more differences than similarities between my own beliefs and circumstance, and what commonly crosses people's minds when they hear that word.

                  It seems to me that human beings by nature have a rather pronounced ability to make assumptions. No matter how many times I attempt to make this distinction, no matter how many times I preface my statements with caveat after caveat, clearly denouncing any connections with any number of things that are called "Christ" or "Christianity", I always wind up lumped by someone into the same camp that I have adamantly proclaimed a strong disagreement with.

                  Needless to say, as if it hasn't been made clearly enough already (especially by my excess frothing brimstone in the discussion on the article Dangerous Art): The only association that I have with the likes of Larry Lea and Dick Bernal or anyone who uses the phrase "Spiritual Warfare" is that I wrestle strenuously with the temptation to cave their heads in with the flat side of a shovel.


                  • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                    by Mordecai on Monday August 27, @10:36PM
                    >Lumping Francis of Asissi, Therese of Lisiuex, Hildegarde of Bingen,
                    >Jacob Boehme, Miguel de Molinos and St. John of the Cross together

                    I'd never lump Boehme and Molinos, both of whom were persecuted by the established churches, with the others, who are all recognized saints of the Roman Catholic religion.


                    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                      by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @12:35AM
                      Well Mordy, that's because you are most certainly one of the most gentle, mild and thoughtful folk around. It just wouldn't be in character for you to assume any sort of general connection of idealogies unless you had sincerely researched them and found provable similarities of goal and method.

                      I would add to your distinctions by stating that, although I did not choose my examples for any particular reason such as this, they all came straight from stream of thought as examples:

                      Hildegarde also was persecuted in the extreme, having made every attempt possible to stop the Crusades, and has never been canonized, to my knowledge. Francis and Therese, though both canonized saints, by the very action of their lives both ran entirely contrary to the grain of the Church, and both gave suprising examples of how a good Christian life could be lived. John of the Cross wrote his greatest work, "The Dark Night of The Soul" in The Prison where he died, condemned as a Heretic by the Church.

                      So, every example that I gave were confessed Christians who resisted the teaching and authority of the church, all but two being persecuted, at least two of them put to death by the Church.

                      I can absolutely relate to the hatred and extreme intolerance expressed by Shasu. I was there only a few days ago myself. In previous articles such as "Pecking Out The Eyes of Jesus" although my presentation is significantly lacking in a number of other ways, you'll find me expressing a rather high degree of vitriol against the Church and Christians unaware of the dark history of their tradition.

                      I just haven't found the hatred to be really effective. It really just fuels the fire without really solving anything.


                      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                        by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @12:09PM
                        In fact, even Therese and Francis were persecuted by The Church in their day, though not to the degree of Molinos, John of the Cross or Boehme....


                        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                          by Mordecai on Tuesday August 28, @12:44PM
                          I don't know about Francis. Certainly his work made the church nervous early on, but then he met with the pope, who endorsed his work in exchange for Francis solidly backing orthodoxy. Aldous Huxley wrote an interesting essay (included in the collection Do What You Will) entitled "Francis and Grigory" which contrasts St. Francis and Rasputin, and not to the detriment of the latter.


                          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                            by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @01:10PM
                            I am somewhat in agreement with Bruce Bawer, author of "Stealing Jesus -- How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" that Francis' "endorsement" of Papal Authority was not one of his strong points. It is very difficult to get a clear picture of someone who lived so long ago, but it seems to me that Francis was just a little naive in that respect.

                            If we are to believe in any way the picture of him painted in the movie "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" it would seem that his enlightenment, which was in every other way beautiful, left him with a little definciency in terms of understanding the darkness of human nature, thus resulting in his being somewhat easily deceived by the powers that be (The Vatican).

                            It seems that he tried to encourage The Church to recant it's evil ways, and was naive enough to believe them when they told him they would, thus deceptively gaining his trust and backing.


                      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                        by Mordecai on Wednesday August 29, @02:04PM
                        >Hildegarde also was persecuted in the extreme, having made every attempt
                        >possible to stop the Crusades, and has never been canonized, to my knowledge.

                        I don't know about her persecution or her anti-Crusades stance, but I do know that she was virulently anti-Jew and preached for some of the most vicious pogroms of her day. As for her sainthood, I quote from the article on her in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "Hildegard was greatly venerated in life and after death. Her biographer, Theodoric, calls her saint, and many miracles are said to have been wrought through her intercession. Gregory IX (1227-41) and Innocent IV (1243-54) ordered a process of information which was repeated by Clement V (1305-14) and John XXII (1316-34). No formal canonization has ever taken place, but her name is in the Roman Martyrology and her feast is celebrated in the Dioceses of Speyer, Mainz, Trier, and Limburg, also in the Abbey of Solesmes, where a proper office is said (Brev. Monast. Tornac., 18 Sept.). When the convent on the Rupertsberg was destroyed in 1632 the relics of the saint were brought to Cologne and then to Eibingen. At the secularization of this convent they were placed in the parish church of the place. In 1857 an official recognition was made by the Bishop of Limburg and the relics were placed on an altar specially built. At this occasion the town of Eibingen chose her as patron. On 2 July, 1900, the cornerstone was here laid for a new convent of St. Hildegard. The work was begun and completed through the munificence of Prince Karl of Löwenstein and Benedictine nuns from St. Gabriel's at Prague entered the new home (17 Sept., 1904)."


                        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                          by Virbius on Wednesday August 29, @05:50PM
                          I'd be really interested to get some publishing info on this Catholic Encyclopaedia to check it out a little more myself. Again, as I have stated before, I find it really difficult to get a really clear picture of anyone who lived in the 13th century and even less the 12th. I have often questioned whether a real person named Hildegarde ever even lived. I do not recall where I heard about the anti-Crusade letters, but I will try to dig up that information.

                          One detail that I seemed to recall about her was that her life history had lapsed due to determined burning of any memory of her by the Patristic authorities of the time, and that a safestore of her writings and works were kept secret until 1974 when the convent that had housed them allowed them to be revealed (at such a time when women were no longer persecuted, was the justification that I recall hearing).

                          Many Catholics are quite aware that a number of their Canonized saints were fictitious entities, yet another fact that does not enamour me to them.


                          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                            by Mordecai on Thursday August 30, @09:20AM
                            I used the online Catholic Encyclopedia at:

                            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/


                    • Re: Hildegarde
                      by Virbius on Thursday August 30, @02:32AM
                      Hildegarde came into my life while studying voice at Cabrillo college in 1992. The greatness of her proliferation alone enamours me to her. Her greatest work is probably her "Symphony of the Harmony of Celestial Revelations" which was essentially a massive 12th century multimedia work comprising vocal music, painting and poetry (and so many claim multimedia was invented in the 20th century!)... She also wrote extensive works of science, categorizations of plants and animals, medicine, the list goes on. She was essentially a female DaVinci or Goethe.

                      Another of her central theses was "Viriditas" or "The Greening Power of God"...essentially a concept very similar to Chi or Prana, I guess, that causes greenness in nature and vitality in humans. This was the 12th century remember, orthodox Catholic nuns. Considering her circumstances she seems to me to have been unusually enlightened (if in fact she actually existed).

                      The anti-jewish thing does not terribly surprise me, as I certainly do not worship her as if without blemish. I would be kind of surprised if she actually directed massacres though, that does not seem to be in character with the rest of what I've heard of her.

                      There is a legend that it was common during her day to have the demons being exorcised insist on being cast out by none other than "Old Wrinklegarde" and would insist on being exorcised by no other.

                      I am fairly certain about her anti-Crusade stance. I recall that a letter written to Bernard of Clairvaux is still in existence which emphatically pleads with Bernard to "cease the senseless violence and destruction", though history clearly records that apparently her words fell on deaf ears.


                • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                  by Shasu Ma'akheru on Monday August 27, @11:37PM
                  But I also feel that it's appropriate to acknowledge that when some moderate Protestant denomination begins to, say, recognize gay and lesbian marriages, they are taking a small step in the right direction -- instead of tarring every manifestation that calls itself Christian with exactly the same brush.

                  This is like praising "moderate" Nazism. If a group of Thelemites came out and said, "Hey, we've decided not to burn homosexuals alive," the response from the rest of the Thelemic world would be resouding indifference. It has never been Thelemic policy, after all, to murder homosexuals. But when some (obscure) Christian group comes along and announces the same thing, everyone gets excited and wants to pat the nice Christies on the head. In other words, it is implicit in such an attitude that Christians are such a monstrously barbaric group of troglodytes that they elicit praise for the mere absence of atrocity.

                  It should not be necessary at this point in history to have to search for reasons not to tolerate Christianity. As would be no less the case with a neo-Nazi movement, modern Christianity should be compelled to justify its continued existence. After so much harm has been done for so long, it is not sufficient for Christian apologists to say that they have ceased to be harmful; they must demonstrate in what manner they have become beneficial to society, and that they are doing so on a grand enough scale to not only make amends for the past but also to compensate for the continued spread of their toxic, life-hating slave doctrine.

                  Yes, there is still far too much oppression going on in the name of Christianity, but the situation has changed over the years, and there's a question as to whether Crowley's attitude towards the Christian religion is still appropriate in the present day.

                  You say this as if Christianity has been mild and well-behaved for several centuries rather than a few decades and in a few places. While active church-sponsored persecution may have ceased in the United States and western Europe, it continues elsewhere. And in the United States, it is the Christian right that provides the solid core of official resistance to environmental reforms necessary to our continued survival as a species. The main problem with Crowley's attitude is that he thought the Osirian religions would just lay down and die with the dawning of the Aeon of Horus, when it is becoming clear that they will have to be fought tooth and nail to the bitter end.


                  • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                    by King Knave on Tuesday August 28, @12:31AM
                    I gotta say... To Virbius... you just may be my hero.
                    You (Virbius) are a champion to those who Love Christ(for whatever reason) yet FEEL that masochistic glory evrytime you you try to explain your positionings. It doesn't matter how many times you explain how many men and women went to their violent deaths due to their thoughts....their beliefs...their CONVICTIONS.
                    Yes
                    OH YES
                    There were multitudes of people who went(sometimes gladly) to their destruction because of their beliefs....beliefs that didn't jibe with the reality tunnels of time.

                    I say to those folks

                    Lets step outside.


                    I'm Transmogrifffyyyyiiinnnngggg! *poit*

                    As far as the destruction of Eric Pryor...



                    two words



                    Andy Kauffman

                    VS.

                    Jerry (King) Lawler.


                    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                      by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @12:47AM
                      I admit it was pretty damned stupid for Pryor to think that he could stand up against The Spiritual Warfare movement. One of my really big central issues here is: How long will it be before you or I stand up and play David and Goliath with this movement?

                      I don't really accept what I feel is the criticism concerning my masochistic satisfaction with being condemned. I'm not really digging this, I am getting NONE of the masochistic glory I am accused of gaining some sort of sick satisfaction from.

                      In fact this whole situation, especially the discussion, quite frightens me. I think that the course the discussion is taking is quite proving the validity of the topic for discussion.


                    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                      by King Knave on Tuesday August 28, @12:51AM
                      Thats Kaufman....with one "F".
                      .....
                      and on with our regularly scheduled program...


                  • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                    by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @01:35AM
                    Shasu,

                    In making this statement I want to be really clear that I am not attempting to engage you or make you any more vitriolic than you already are, but I think it would avoid confusing the issue if, when you criticize me, please criticise me directly instead of referring to me as "some factions" &c. if in fact this is your motivation. Not making this distinction clear is only serving to muddy the waters.

                    That being said, I really have to point out about as clearly as possible that I am much more in your camp than in the camp of those you loathe so vehemently. I have frequently fumed my hatred at the very same things you are hating, I believe that you have more than mild justification for your position. I share in every way your desire to see this phenomenon stopped in it's tracks.

                    I just feel that you are throwing the baby away with the proverbial bathwater. I agree that the bathwater is really quite stanky and due for a toss.

                    I have little intention of changing Thelema or Thelemites, of evangelising Christ. I consider the practice of my beliefs to be more important. I consider the perpetuation of Christianity to be dangerous due to the very issues we are discussing. On the other hand, I am a rabid evangelist of Thelema. The only change that I can see wishing to make in Thelemites is to arm them and make them more effective in their battle against the very same issues you and I are both in agreement about. You might hopefully be encouraged to meet me in the middle somewhere if only to be certain that I walk away from here properly representing your beliefs. We both have little strength against your fears walking alone.

                    In the battle you are waging against the hypocracy and mayhem of the established institution of Christianity, you have in me one of the most determined and educated allies you are likely to come across. I am in absolute complete agreement with the degree of hatred you are presenting toward "Christians" and The Church. The situation is in every way as serious as you make it out to be, maybe more.

                    The methodology you are using is goign to be exceedingly impotent in making any of the kind of changes you would like to see occur. In fact, your methods are only going to serve to fuel the fire and make the situation worse, leading ultimately to worst.

                    Love is the Law, Love under Will


                  • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                    by Xnoubis on Tuesday August 28, @03:33PM
                    I think the question comes down to strategy. How can the damage done by fundamentalist religions be reduced and ended as quickly as possible? Even if every Thelemite in the world were to agree to speak, write, and act as intolerantly of, say, Christianity as possible, I doubt that we would make much of an impact on its influence. It's just too big. Rabid opposition also tends to backfire, especially when it becomes known as a cranky mass movement.

                    With that in mind, I think that persuasion is likely to be more effective than attempted extermination. We're not likely to persuade Christians out of their religion, but we can appeal to the moderate factions in order to curb the worst of the abuses. It's not as romantic an approach, but I think it's a more realistic one.

                    There's also satire. I think that the opponents of Christianity ought to make a monument to Dana Carvey for his "Church Lady" character -- he probably turned more people away from the church than Nietzsche and Crowley put together.


                    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                      by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @04:34PM
                      Then there's Ned Flanders and his weekend family retreats at which they learn to be more judging... "Okely Dokely Neighbor!"


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @07:39AM
                > To be really fair, one ought to include Ben
                > Rowe's suggestion that Crowley's failure to
                > purge himself entirely of the Christian world-
                > view was the proximate cause of his decline
                > and failure in the second half of his life.

                In spite of my great respect for Mr. Rowe and his work, I am not in agreement with this summary of Crowley. You make it sound as if his heroin addiction and age had nothing whatsoever to do with his decline, an assumption which I find quite humorous. (I am glad to finally find something in this conversation that I can find humour and irony in).

                If I haven't made this clear elsewhere, my goal is absolutely not to convince anyone of the truth of my interpretations or beliefs. I am quite content to "agree to disagree".


    Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
    by spetznaz on Tuesday August 28, @10:06AM
    I do not honestly believe that any of you ppl
    is honestly bothered with christianity as a whole. Except maybe for those who had to bear the burden in their youth.

    And it -christianity- is not good in and by itself. It all depends on those that accept that
    which it has to offer.
    And don't go crying when there cannot be, say,
    same sex-marriages, because you just have to go to hell in such a case for sinning.

    And to our once book-burning Furbius:
    you were just being silly and was made a fool out of. Who has not had it happen to hir?
    A bit of naivete is not necessarily a bad thing,
    nor is a clear conscience.

    It was 'just a phase', and now you've grown above that, and have moved on to greener pastures.
    This clinging to outer trimmings instead of the intent that guides it, how spurious!

    This should be discussed over a drink. Several drinks actually.

    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
      by Mordecai on Tuesday August 28, @11:13AM
      >And don't go crying when there cannot be, say, same sex-marriages, because
      >you just have to go to hell in such a case for sinning.

      That would be fine if the Christers were willing to let God do the judging and leave people alone, but no, they have to make their own little hell on earth for queer couples.


      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
        by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @11:55AM
        > their own little hell on earth for queer
        > couples.

        And pagans, and Black Metal kids, and anyone who worships "another God", and anyone who thinks differently than they do, anyone who interprets scripture differently than they do, anyone who chooses to think for themselves, etc. etc. etc....


    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
      by me on Tuesday August 28, @01:20PM
      This should be discussed over a drink. Several drinks actually.

      Yes it should, but what shouldn't?

      What you ppl fail to realixe is that Religious bigots rule the world. Everything that happens- which is "bad" is the result of religious aspects which have allowed such actions. THAT is what intelligent people are fighting against. It isn't some stupid feminist- or false-psychological- perceived Past History fight. Any one who does not see the truth is a stagnant non-thinker (i.e., religious bigot).


      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
        by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @01:41PM
        This point -- that the most hostile and life-denying aspects of modern secular society are all results of bizarre distortions of Christian ideas originally instituted by The Church as a means of controlling the masses -- is one that I have often taken up myself.

        Xnoubis countered this idea when presented by pointing out that this is really an oversimplification and unrealistic reduction of the actually large number of influences that have acted and continue to act on society at large.

        In other words, though I have a natural tendency to agree with you, I have come to understand that this is a very biased and not terribly realistic view, but that I don't think that makes the issue concerning the dangers of Religious Fundamentalism any less severe. In fact I think they are much, much more severe than the picture you present, and much closer to the extreme picture painted here by Shasu.


        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
          by me on Tuesday August 28, @02:06PM
          "In other words, though I have a natural tendency to agree with you, I have come to understand that this is a very biased and not terribly realistic view, but that I don't think that makes the issue concerning the dangers of Religious Fundamentalism any less severe. In fact I think they are much, much more severe than the picture you present, and much closer to the extreme picture painted here by Shasu."

          How can you disagree and at the same time agree, with my statement? I'm not challenging the articles which Xtian leaders STOLE from earlier religions; I am challenging the world NOW. And I must say that the psychological aspect is minor compared to the political ends (i.e., Social Security, drugs, nation, race, gangs having "equal rights", etc.).

          Just because Shashu does not promote historical truth does not mean she is wiser than I.

          Have you read Nietzsche's Antichrist?


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @02:32PM
            > How can you disagree and at the same time agree,
            > with my statement?

            It seems to me quite natural for someone to agree with part of another's view, but not all of it. In your case, I tend to agree with your idea but not your application. In fact I took what I feel is an identical standpoint on the issue only a few days ago, but have since come to see the narrowness and subsequent unreality of that viewpoint.

            Again: I am still in agreement with the emotional content of your statement, that it certainly seems as if everything wrong with the world is the result of Religious Fundamentalism. I just have come to realize that a broader and more realistic view is going to be necessary in order to tackle to root of the problem.

            We certainly will not get very far attacking Christians for things that in fact they are not responsible for. It will be quite a difficult enough challenge to somehow convince them to accept responsibility for the things that they are responsible for.

            > Just because Shashu does not promote historical truth does not mean she is wiser than I.

            I have been assuming Shasu to be "he", I'd be quite surprised if this is not the case.

            I for one do not see any part of this argument as a contest to determine who is more enlightened, so to me it does not really much matter who is wiser than who. I'd be quite content if I somehow manage to come out of this discussion wiser than I was before it began. If a few other people can manage to get similar results I think my goal will have been achieved.


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by me on Tuesday August 28, @03:16PM
              I don't understand a word you've said. You say you disagree with my application and yet I've not written one word of it! How is that? You say it is unreal and narrow and yet that is what i call the xtian view!Why is that? You say xtians can't be held accountable for their actions !!!! I say: Why is that?!!! You say you'd be glad that one (or you yourself!) were to have learned one thing from this dialogue, but would be surprised if such did happen....Why is that?!!!! You have yet to answer if youve read the Antichrist.... why is that? You've yet to tackle the imprtant aspect of the conversation.... why is that?!!!!


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @04:31PM
                I don't understand why you don't understand. why is that?!!!!


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @04:46PM
                The reason that a narrow and unrealistic world view cannot be used to battle a narrow and unrealistic world view is precisely because you cannot fight fire with fire. Returning evil with evil rarely accomplishes anything of value.


                • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                  by me on Tuesday August 28, @04:56PM
                  In other words, anything that you disagree with because it goes against your faith, is wrong, and that, because of some higher power, you don;t have to defend your beliefs. I see. Jesus died on the cross so that you can do whatever the bloody hell pleases you. THAT's religious bigotry!


                  • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                    by Virbius on Tuesday August 28, @05:02PM
                    Yes. I am a religious bigot. I am also a skillful hacker and I have noted the location of your terminal. We are sending a team around later today to have you rounded up and "converted".

                    See you in church! Don't forget your tithe money.


    Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
    by jazzcat on Tuesday August 28, @09:12PM
    ..ok, i have been following all this lovely little
    mental song and dance, with all the pleasues and joy that i get from watching, the Ten Commandments,
    Moses with a winchester up my keister, or more like it its sort of like watching the key stone cops,did anyone ever wonder just what "Keystone"
    means?...ok, to sum up my response, I have to say that I do not see anything "vitriolic" about Shasu's comments, perhaps the most outspoken and well thought out, perhaps the most accurate sensible
    only concievable reasonable response to the schizo historical 'cesspit of christianity'...my feeling that there is radical, and there is radical, and
    my own emotive feeling about the Roman Catholic
    church and all its bastard children, is that one can only deal with it on a personal basis, one must eradicate any sentiment what so ever regarding any "christian" connection in ones own life, one must be completely ruthless with oneself
    and litteraly pull out the brainwashed, mind controled rot, known as "christinity" literialy
    one must pull it up by the roots, be radical, in this, cuz this IS the transformation process, that
    is the light at the end of the tunnel of the thelemic magical act par excellence!...the ultimate test of thelemite, is to free oneself of any sentiment regarding the "abomination of desolation" that some call christ!

    on the other hand on some level, what is known as "Christ consciousness" is an "new age" lose association, that regards the heart chakra
    and perhaps this would be the legitimite Osirian
    manifestation, that Shasu was refering to..

    and as far as Virbius, is concerned i believe he is in the throes of a long protracted "dark night of the soul"...and perhaps he will eventually
    work out his idenity conflict!...cuz in 'my
    mind' there is no such thing as a christian thelemite, or a thelemite christian, even though
    Crowley saw fit to approprate some sort of Gnostic christian symbolism, cuz the christians approrated
    it in the first place from everybody else that came before them...and so it goes, Blasti Omphedia!!!...and thankyou Shasu, for your deep meditation on that subject, very profound at that!
    perhaps old AL didn't go far enought!!

    but that's for the rest of us to follow through!
    and even deconstruct, nothing is holy, but NOTHING! Chaos never died, but neither did the EMPIRE!...make your choice there is no inbetweens
    in the middle of the dark night, only change!

    • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
      by Mordecai on Tuesday August 28, @09:53PM
      Personally I make a distinction between Christianity, which I pretty much feel the same way about as you and S.M. do, and Christ, a Godform and legendary teacher with whom I have a friendly, if not that intimate, relationship. Christ was not the first Christian; he wasn't even a Christian at all. The sicko behind the mess of Christ-worship (as opposed to Christ-embodiment) was that prototype of the televangelists, Paul of Tarsus. Not that it matters, but I believe on the basis of his writings that Crowley would have shared this "Love the Christ, hate the Christian" attitude.


      • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
        by jazzcat on Tuesday August 28, @10:58PM
        ok that, but Christ means, messiah, which means king!...and a king of the jews, could have been a radical teacher, and a leader(king)...

        the only other meaning of Christ Consciousness
        as it were, would be some emination, "of the heart"...but just what IS THAT!

        being loving to those less able to fend for them selves?

        being a great something or other?...it's sort of vague...if change is the only stibility
        then how do you define anything?

        even the tree of life must change, branches are always branches, leaves are always leaves,
        green is always green...but these are images of nature, didn't the Egyptians think that the brain
        was the heart! or was it the heart was the brain?

        lots of devils food cake for thought!


        • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
          by Virbius on Wednesday August 29, @05:58AM
          I share a very similar relationship to the legendary teacher as described by Mordecai. I have no interest in converting anyone to my religion or way of thinking, to me this relationship is personal, and to me it is an important personal relationship.

          Christ, to me, is very much a Nature God and not an institutionalized aproximation of embryonic omnipotence (if you can grok the ee cummings which I am sure you can). I find great value in Christ the teacher, but I find no value in "Christ the evil dictator" who I feel is a fabrication of profiteering evangelicals and not real in any way.

          The idea of Christ meaning Messiah which means King... I don't think that means he is like a Political King, it means something else. I don't see him as a ruler of people, more as their caretaker and helper. Much more like the Taoist idea of a King or Sage than a Dark Ages European Monarch.


          • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
            by jazzcat on Wednesday August 29, @02:55PM
            ...let me see you invoke a nature spirit, call it
            ummmm, (christ), um, cuz, well, it's sage like,
            not a dictator like figure, kinda Taoist like,
            see if I am following you, ah' how about Logos like, as in the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, Who's famous fragments begin, to wit: 1. Although
            the Logos is eternaly valid, yet men are unable to understand it - not only before hearing it, but
            even after they have heard it for the first time.
            ( and this translation goes on) yata yaty);That is to say, although all things come to pass in accordance with this Logos, men seem to be without
            any experiance of it - at least if they are judged in the light of such words and deeds as I am here setting forth, My own method is to distinguish each thing accoeding to its nature, and to specify how it behaves; other men, on the contrary, are as neglectul of what they do when awake as they are when asleep.(and so ends this translation of the first ,FRAGMENT...So kinda simular to the Tao, the word of Tao, or WORD, or LOGOS...


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by Mark Shekoyan on Wednesday August 29, @03:37PM
              Whatever "Christ Consciossness" Is/Was/Shall Be, the nondual coincidence of opposites, the union beyond the abyss, the totalization of the LOGOS, the Adam Kadmon, WORD MADE FLESH, stands beyond the veil of human conceptual limits...like unto which a Hydrogen Bomb of An Orgasm, is but a little fart...

              LUCIFER-CHRIST
              HORUS-SET

              The outer limits of the dualistic rubber band of the human imagination. SNAP IT, and you might get a sharp sting that WAKES US UP.

              In the end we're left with the "AWE" ful Silence of the Void...The pregnant Void of the Laughing Fool on the Hill/Mountain, Home of Sages who grok WHAT IT IS...


              • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
                by jazzcat on Wednesday August 29, @07:17PM
                ...Ya, like cool Daddy-o, like I am the most!
                you are the most!...

                ....'Stangers In A Strange Land'

                ...I GROK!!!, you the most!

                .....W-H-A-T IT IS!!!...like jazz!

                ...like ON THE ROAD, to that great big Beat in the sky...

                ........NON-DUAL, at the Zero-Point, were love,
                hate, life, love, beauity, ugly, cease to exist
                as contradictions...ya man! I'm in the groove!

                ...hey all you hepcats, listen to the Jazzcat,
                I'm layin down the t-h-e-l-e-m-i-c testamony,
                listen to the sounds, listen to the blues behind
                the blues, thats where the WORD hangs!...

                ......beyond all conceptions, we in human mode can lay on it, beyond good and evil, Like da Nietzsche
                man say, where the twilight ov de idols is a
                chaos ball dancin turnin, shinin, spinnin slow

                ..........de jesu,set object at de end, de ever livin end....WHAT IT IS!!! snap fingers!!!

                93 93 93 rip rag zag a shag a zig rama shama bad dad!!!!ol AL et AL


              • Re: Silence
                by Mumon on Friday August 31, @05:14AM
                [The sound of one hand clapping]


            • Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
              by Virbius on Thursday August 30, @03:34PM
              Jazz,

              Thanks for the Heraclitus quotations. I was previously aware that Logos was a Hellenistic philosophical concept but was unaware of the specifics.

              I will hear no more about how much less educated you are than I am. Okay?

              :-)

              Si señor! In my understanding "Tao" "Word" and "Logos" are synonyms.


    • Re: Chaos
      by Virbius on Thursday August 30, @02:56AM
      > Chaos never died

      "Primordial uncarved block, sole worshipful monster, inert & spontaneous, more ultraviolet than any mythology...Chaos comes before all principles of order & entropy, it is neither a God nor a Maggot...Everything in nature is perfectly real including consciousness, there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Not only have the chains of the law been broken they never existed demons never guarded the stars, the Empire never got started, Eros never grew a beard.

      "No, listen! what happened was this: they lied to you, sold you ideas of good and evil, gave you distrust of your body & shame for your prophethood of chaos...there is no becoming, no revolution, no struggle, no path...already you are the monarch of your own skin -- your inviolable freedom waits to be completed only by the love of other monarchs; a politics of dream, urgent as the blueness of sky."

      - Hakim Bey, "Chaos"

      Kidnap someone and make them happy.


      • Re: Chaos
        by Mordecai on Thursday August 30, @09:27AM
        We took my eleven year old niece to an amusement park last night. As I walked down the midway I hear a booming amplified voice, "We hope you enjoyed Chaos!". Well, of course, I thought. It turns out there's a ride called "Chaos".


        • Re: Chaos
          by jazzcat on Thursday August 30, @04:16PM
          ...too coo-el. like we all be on the Kaos ride
          into the core experiance, beyond ex-spear-on-see
          beyond the fake floor that falls benith yo feet,
          beyond the trick wall driping solar blood, beyond
          the abandoned empty funhouse at the end of time, where the ghost clown of mind frollics in the
          ersatz pews, and worships the space behind the
          popsicle stick crusifix, that's mote-it-be-le-crew-it's-a fix, wax was, I, pick up styx, beyond
          the river, beyond the quagmire of distorted mirrors, through the narrow passage, watch the image befor yu, watch the trick ball bounce along the wall, watch the Had it be Bad Dad, see the NU
          it be tru, follower her deeper into the maze,beyond the HODADS, beyond the CHRIST carny barkers, beyond the writing on the wall, beyond the evil greedy son-a-bitches, that are the powers that be, callin the shots, spewin the propaganda,
          destroyin the invironment for poophet and gin,beyond the bug eyed masses zombied infront
          of the GOD TUBE, down trought the shoot, over the slide, through the trick doors, out the womb, past the minoutar with devilish horns, down over the rapids, shoot the whirlpool, and POP out the other side, where we are all waiting for you with
          party hats, champagne, and 'THE BOOK OF THE LAW'
          Oh YEZ OH YEZ OH YEZ!!! da jazz be siblime!


    Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
    by spetznaz on Tuesday September 04, @10:12AM
    Swept along on tides of Zeitgeist, the human form in all its frailty is bound to err in its pitiful ways.
    Hence ye aulde 'Book Of The Law', for those who can... and know howto.

    What matter these nitwitted actions of the misguided in the light of this sublime?
    Or in any light? For they be set to pray on the weak, going for maximum effect in their infantile short-term delusional thinking.

    Why be bothered so much? Hah!
    What of the laughter etc? Sick 'em!
    And apport to the heel of Hoor. *winks*

    Re: The Destruction of Eric Pryor
    by existentialgoddess on Tuesday April 09, @11:09AM
    Hello all.

    I have no idea how old these postings about Eric Pryor may be. By some circuitous route today, I found myself punching in his name as a search and finding more than I expected about his exploits.

    My interst on the subject has deep routes. Many years ago, at the tender age of 15, I met Eric at the Magickal Childe, an occult shop which was run by Herman Slater in New York City. I was just beginning my explorations into Wicca, the occult, and my own sexuality. As it turned out, I gave up my virginity to him on the night of a Beltaine Sabbat sometime after the winding up of the maypole. Karma is karma, as they used to say back then. Whatever has transpired, I can't change the fact that he played a part in my personal drama at a pivotal time in my life.

    Be that as it may, it's a strange feeling to know that the man with whom I had this first experience and who was my first really big heartbreak became the infamous character described in the articles I have read.

    If anyone has any news or info on him, i.e., whether or not he is still alive and wreaking havoc, I would be interested to hear.

    Susan

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