Welcome to The Beast Bay General Thelema Science Art Scholarship The Beast Bay website
 up a level
 search
 main


  AL in the Family
General Thelema Posted by Xnoubis on September 03, 2001 @ 05:15 PM
from the brood-force dept.

I often think of Thelema as the child of Greco-Egyptian Paganism (Nuit, Hadit) and Judeo-Christian Eschatology (Babalon, Therion), despite the anti-Christian (matricidal?) component of Thelemic doctrine. Am I the only one struck by the resemblance in personalities between Ra-Hoor-Khuit and the Yahweh of the Old Testament?


<  |  >

 

  Related Links
  • Articles on General Thelema
  • Also by Xnoubis
  • Contact author
  • The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them.


    Re: AL in the Family
    by jazzcat on Monday September 03, @06:14PM
    [In the Shells]

    • Re: AL in the Family
      by Mordecai on Monday September 03, @08:04PM
      >but ya never know when my arrow is going to fly right through your barracade!

      Comments like this, not untypical for you, are far more indicative of arrogant brag than anything I've ever written to or of you.


      • Re: AL in the Family
        by jazzcat on Tuesday September 04, @12:26AM
        ..hey mord here is another arrow across your boring life...

        by the way mister important , know what aeon it is!

        oh ya its on your watch!


        • Re: AL in the Family
          by Mordecai on Tuesday September 04, @10:23AM
          If you ever get wise to yourself you'll realize that your false imputation of "snobbish airs" to others is merely an indication of your own deep-seated feelings of inferiority. And by the way, everyone is important. Even you, if you'd just believe it.


    • Re: AL in the Family
      by Philetus on Monday September 03, @08:33PM
      'real initiated intelligence! arrogant types
      with to much money, and education'

      Can't say I can think of anything more arrogant than to question the initiated status of anyone who disagrees with you, and make assumptions about their socio-economic status to boot...As if that has anything to do with anything.


      • Re: AL in the Family
        by jazzcat on Tuesday September 04, @12:28AM
        [In the Shells]


        • Re: AL in the Family
          by Philetus on Tuesday September 04, @03:01AM
          '...hey mister rightwing guy'

          And you make another baseless assumption about my political affiliation...Admittedly, a very superficial, and knee-jerk interpretation of my comments about the slavery reparations issue might make you assume that I am a stereotypical 'right-winger'...but, well, it looks like those are the only kinds of interpretations you are capable of making, so enjoy yourself.


        • Re: AL in the Family
          by jazzcat on Wednesday April 24, @09:25PM
          [In the Shells]


    Re: AL in the Family
    by Tim Maroney on Monday September 03, @08:41PM
    The connection between Ra-Horakhty and Yahweh seems obvious. In part I think it is a deliberate attempt by AC to co-opt the god-form. In another way, if we accept the "unconscious emanation" theory of Liber AL, it represents an attempt to come to terms with a mythic figure that made a deep imprint on Crowley but that he also consciously rejected.

    Tim

    Re: AL in the Family
    by Faust on Tuesday September 04, @07:06PM
    I'll agree straight off with you Xnoubis, and then add a 'but' if you don't mind.

    I'll agree that Yahweh carries many attributes of Ra-Hoor-Khuit, but historically, Yahweh is a composite of many earlier gods. Not that this is any news to anyone here. There are several aspects of Baal and Moloch, (not to mention several references in the bible to these two) incorporated into the early concepts of Yahweh.
    War gods share a theme of being very harsh and not taking crap from anyone (big bad male ego), Set in fact (no I'm not T.O.S.) is depicted in early glyphs teaching the Pharaohs the arts of war.
    Personally, I think that Yahweh, in his early conceptions was a war god, pure and simple. Of course you could get into the logic loop argument of destroying/creating etc.

    I agree with Tim, that the connection seems obvious, but you could also make that same connection with Ra-Hoor-Khuit and Ymir, Woton, Ahriman, or several other destructive forces. The Xtian connections that I personally find interesting are to be found in the Books of Enoch and Book of Jubilees, specifically in relation to the concept of ‘Watcher’ angels and Nephilim. Good bed time ghost stories…

    Obviously, this is just my opinion on the matter.
    Here is a favorite Yahweh quote of mine:

    "If he [God] had had a motto, it would have read, "Let no innocent person escape." You remember what he did in the time of the flood. There were multitudes and multitudes of tiny little children, and he knew they had never done him any harm; but their relations had, and that was enough for him: he saw the waters rise toward their screaming lips, he saw the wild terror in their eyes, he saw that agony of appeal in the mothers' faces which would have touched any heart but his, but he was after the guiltless particularly..."
    (Mark Twain, Letters From the Earth, p.49, pub. 1938 e.v.)

    • Re: AL in the Family
      by Mordecai on Tuesday September 04, @07:52PM
      I'm with the original Yahweh being a wargod idea. The best cognate could be Khemosh, the god of the Moabites (perhaps the closest relatives of the earliest Hebrews).


      • Re: AL in the Family
        by nexist on Wednesday September 05, @12:58PM
        I am unfamiliar with Khemosh, but a classic correlation would be Ares. God of mindless bloodshed and tyranny.

        "And Joshua smote the whole country, the mountain, and the south, and the lowland, and the hill-slopes, and all their kings: he let none remain, but he utterly destroyed all that breathed, as Jehovah the God of Israel had commanded." Joshua 10:40 [Darby]


    • Re: AL in the Family
      by Shasu Ma'akheru on Wednesday September 05, @05:02PM
      War gods share a theme of being very harsh and not taking crap from anyone (big bad male ego)

      What's inherently male about war deities? Sekhmet, the Morrigan, Ishtar, certain aspects of Athene -- just to name a very few from Europe and the near east -- are all war goddesses. And certainly Liber AL encourages the participation of women in war in a couple of places. It is, in any event, dangerous to get into the habit of thinking of war as being masculine in a gender sense; it is only masculine in the limited technical sense of being active.

      As far as Yahweh is concerned, Joseph Campbell ties him to an obscure Arabian volcano god, which would certainly fit with the demiurgic aspect, making him more like Hephaestus than Jove or Ares. War is only a secondary aspect of Tetragrammaton in the forms of YHVH Tzabaoth and Elohim Tzabaoth. Moreover, the functions of a "war" god are concerned with a great deal more than armed conflict between groups of humans, and not all aspects of the "war" gods are, strictly speaking, destructive.

      Ra-Hoor-Khuit, or Re-Horakhty to modern Egyptologists, is a composite god incorporating both martial and solar forces. The closest parallel in Christianity to Ra-Hoor-Khuit is not Yahweh, but the Christ of Revelation who comes as a lion to purge the world in preparation for the New Jerusalem. If you want to look at Judaism-Christianity-Thelema as a direct progression (personally, I do not), then just as the Jews failed to recognize their long-awaited messiah in the form of Jesus Christ, so did the Christians fail to recognize their long-awaited second coming in the form of Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Of course, that's all utter bullshit that does great violence to the meaning of all three religions, but that really is the point -- the syncretism of the gentile Qabala can only be carried so far before it corrupts the religious symbolism it is trying to equate.

      Personally, I fail to see the point of constantly trying to correlate Thelema with Christianity. It would be one thing if the goal of such an exercise was to isolate and destroy contaminants from the Christian past, but it often seems that the only purposes are to vilify Aleister Crowley or else to argue that all men are brothers. The former is superfluous and the latter is absurd.


      • Re: AL in the Family
        by nexist on Thursday September 06, @10:38AM
        The closest parallel in Christianity to Ra-Hoor-Khuit is not Yahweh, but the Christ of Revelation who comes as a lion to purge the world in preparation for the New Jerusalem.

        I have always felt that there was a strong correlation in this conception.


        • Re: AL in the Family
          by J. A. on Thursday September 06, @11:26AM
          How do you explain then that Thelema is Not Jewish and not dogmatic? Why is Thelema opposed to Christ?

          I urge you to read the intro to BOOK 4.

          Any similarity is by a limit of possibilities for mankind. There are, after all, only two sides to a coin.

          Idiots Awake!


          • Re: AL in the Family
            by Mordecai on Thursday September 06, @01:28PM
            Actually Thelema is Jewish. It's steeped in Jewish and Greco-Jewish kabalah, and Judaism is conspicuously absent from the list of creeds attacked by Ra Hoor Khuit (Crowley makes a feeble attempt to equate the "Din" with the Jews, but it's never been used that way before while with its Arabic meaning of "the faith" it is often applied to Islam, and in the context of the BOTL is probably referring to Sufism). Like most new religions in the West, Thelema can easily lay claim to being the "true" Judaism.


            • Re: AL in the Family
              by Mordecai on Thursday September 06, @01:30PM
              p.s. -- you speak of others as "idiots", but you don't even realize that there are actually three sides to every coin.


              • Re: AL in the Family
                by nexist on Thursday September 06, @01:45PM
                WOuldn't that depend on the shapoe of the coin?

                Thanks for mentioning this, I was going to comment on that as well, but I forgot.


            • Re: AL in the Family
              by J. A. on Thursday September 06, @04:51PM
              No, actually you're jewish.

              Thelema is not.

              Golden Dawn? maybe. But Aiwass never liked that either.


          • Re: AL in the Family
            by nexist on Thursday September 06, @01:43PM
            Ok, set your alarm...

            How do you explain then that Thelema is Not Jewish and not dogmatic?

            Well, technically Christianity isn't really Jewish either, unless you are talking about distant roots, in which case Thelema is definately Judeo-Christi-Buddhist and Greco-Egyptic.

            As for Dogma, there is tons of Dogma accreted onto Thelema. Not only is there a ton of Dogma, there is a ton of competing Dogma which each side faithfully presents as the truth -- & then portrays all other interpretations as 'Dogma'.

            Your Anti-Christian Stance vies with my non-Christian supercession. Whoopee (btw, your dogma is the more popular one). Other dogmas revolve around the nature of Deity, the Soul, Reincarnation, the True Will, commentary on AL (& the other Holy Books), role of Liber Oz, etc ad infinitum.

            Why is Thelema opposed to Christ?

            It is not. It could be argued that Thelema is opposed to (dominate forms of) Christianity, however the fact that the word of the Magus of the previous Aeon, known to us today as Jesus Christ, is still utilized as a method whereby "the Energies of the Æon of Horus work his Will in the world" (Liber V), should indicate the fairly high regard that the teacher, who is known as Christ, holds in Thelemic doctrine.

            I urge you to read the intro to BOOK 4.

            Which one? Not that it matters, I popped over to The Hermetic Library and skimmed the introductions to the various parts of Book 4 listed.

            Preliminary Remarks in Part I -- Discusses the Validity of past Teachers Moses, Christ, Mohammed, Siddartha

            Preliminary Remarks in Part II -- Discusses importance of Dogma (& its associated implemented forms) & its Benefits.

            Introduction in Part III -- Overview on the Theorems, Postulates and Nature of Magick

            I did not find any type of introduction for Part IV online.

            So perhaps you could clarify just what earth-shattering renunciation of Christ was to be revealed.

            In response, I urge you to read Liber Libræ sub figura XXX.


    Re: AL in the Family
    by adrian dobbie on Wednesday September 05, @06:21AM
    Ra-Hoor-Khuit & Yahweh? Try the similarities between Aleister Crowley & Aiwass…

    Is it any wonder that the two (former) may have correlations bearing in mind the fact that Crowley was to a large extent an inverted Plymouth brother. It has been postulated by Israel Regardie among others that although Liber AL was 'dictated' to A.C. - the possibility of Aiwass actually being an aspect of the scribe's unconscious was clear. If this is the case (which I suspect it is) can we really be so surprised to find the 'Lord of the New Aeon' may actually have rather a lot in common with the 'jealous and veangeful' Yahweh - Lord of the previous Aeon??

    Love Under Will

    Re: AL in the Family
    by Fra THA;M on Wednesday September 05, @10:15AM
    Even the prose style of The Book of the Law reads like some Old Testament invictive, and it's archaic use of language seems akin to the King James version of the Bible. It seems likely Crowley envisioned himself as some Old Testament prophet; a visionary Isaiah, a wrathful Elijah laying curses, and a Moses leading the Children Israel on an Exodus from slavery to freedom. And so he was.

    Re: AL in the Family
    by nexist on Wednesday September 05, @12:50PM
    I would question the phrase "anti-Christian component of Thelemic doctrine." Thelema fulfills (i.e. supercedes) Christianity, in precisely the same manner that Christianity fulfills Judaism. The Law followed the progression from Moses to Jesus on to To Mega Therion. Thelema opposes the corruption of the divine current in ALL religions. AL III:51-54 (Eye pecking & flapping & flesh rending) addresses this, and it is fairly clear when compared to verses AL I:56 ("All words are sacred and all prophets true;") and AL II:5 ("Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.").

    Personally, I think of Thelema as the child of Esoteric/Gnostic Christianity and Eastern Philosophy (e.g. Buddhism & Yoga).

    Despite a superficial (imo) resemblence between Yahweh & Ra-Hoor-Khuit, they are different. Ra-Hoor is not racist, nor has He called for Genocide.

    Though a case could be made for both of their chosens being a "stiff-necked people"

    Re: AL in the Family
    by Alex Chapunoff on Sunday September 09, @01:15PM
    If Christ is analogous to Osiris (representing the Sun from an earthly perspective -- "rising and falling") and Crowley is analogous to Horus (the Sun from a more objective perspective -- "always shining"), then in a sense Crowley is Christ's "son." As Horus slew Set to avenge Osiris's death, Crowley could be seen as rescuing Christ (true -- Gnostic -- Christianity) from Churchianity (the restriction and hypocrisy associated with the Christian authorities, particularly the Roman Catholic Church). Set has been associated with Saturn, and puritanical dogmatic Christianity has Saturnine (repression, control, centralized conservatism) qualities. There are certainly historical precedents for considering the Papacy anti-Christian (the FAMA and CONFESIO manifestos of the Rosicrucians come to mind). In general, Christian religious authorities appear to play a role analogous to the Pharisees (Jewish religious authorities), whom Christ criticized for not being "true Jews."

    The role of Crowley's psychological makeup in regards to Thelema is ultimately a matter of speculation. But, in reading his AUTOHAGIOGRAPHY, it's interesting to note the paramount role that the death of his earthly father played in his own development (who he was, prior to his father's death, seemed a stranger to him and he writes of himself in the third person). Perhaps his father was his personal Osiris/Christ figure.

    Also, Crowley's behavior and persona throughout his life seem to have been designed, at least in part, to keep Thelema from being co-opted and homogenized by the sanctimonious Establishment types, to save it from the erroneous fate which befell Christianity from the time it became the official state religion of Rome.

    • Re: AL in the Family
      by Mordecai on Monday September 10, @10:00AM
      >There are certainly historical precedents for considering the Papacy anti-Christian

      Particularly Rev. Hislop's "Two Babylons" which Crowley admired for its portrayal of the various survivals of paganism in the RC church.

      >Also, Crowley's behavior and persona throughout his life seem to have been
      >designed, at least in part, to keep Thelema from being co-opted and homogenized
      >by the sanctimonious Establishment types, to save it from the erroneous fate which
      >befell Christianity from the time it became the official state religion of Rome.

      If that was his intent he failed spectacularly, judging by the vast majority of present-day Thelemic groups.


      • Re: AL in the Family
        by Alex Chapunoff on Wednesday September 12, @04:49PM
        I haven't read Hislop, but the RC Church has always had a more pagan ritual feel than the other Christian churches, since the latter reacted to this through the Reformation.

        Did you mean that today's Thelemic groups are homogeneous and conformist to the point that Thelema may become an Establishment religion?


        • Re: AL in the Family
          by Mordecai on Wednesday September 12, @06:09PM
          Well, there is a fairly wide range of groups, mostly tiny, that call themselves Thelemic, but yes, it seems that the larger they are the more they aim at homogeneity and conformity. I think the intention of most Thelemites and their groups is indeed to become an "Establishment" religion. Certainly Crowley himself often wrote of nations adopting Thelema, believing that the first country to do so would thereby gain some sort of advantage over the others.


          • Re: AL in the Family
            by Alex Chapunoff on Wednesday September 12, @06:39PM
            As we all know from this mass-production age, there is often a tradeoff between quantity and quality, a sort of inverse relation. Crowley wrote (in THE LAW IS FOR ALL and other places) of the loss of craftsmanship, depth, wonder, etc., due to modern life and the commercial and technological emphasis in culture. But I really sense Thelema has a safeguard against this in Crowley's persona and work. I can't imagine Joe Q. Public and wife sending Joe Jr. off to Thelema School to study the works of the Beast. Thelema has an aura that is much too lurid and (apparently) amoral for the masses, who are very moralistic. The substance would have to be separated from the style. Of course, anything is possible. I'm sure Christ in his time was considered a scoundrel, sinner, and troublemaker. It's true that Crowley wanted the Law to be adopted by nations... but he seems to have been very idealistic on this score.


            • Re: AL in the Family
              by Mordecai on Wednesday September 12, @08:12PM
              Certainly in this America of George Bubbleyou Wuss you are absolutely right. I can't imagine John Q. Public and wife sending little Jack off to Thelema School to study the works of the Beast either. But you are also right to note that the aspirations of Crowley (and many other Thelemites) are for mass acceptance.


    Re: AL in the Family
    by Montana on Saturday January 19, @02:11AM
    Thats an interesting thought.
    What's about the resamblance beteween IHVH "i am what i am" and AIWASS "i was" as a far longer description of beeing?
    93 93/93
    Montana

    The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them.


        "As St. Paul says, 'Without shedding of blood there is no remission,' and who are we to argue with St. Paul?" -- Aleister Crowley
    All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster.
    [ home | search ]