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  First Open Source Gnostic Church

Community Posted by <Aleph> on Thursday August 03, @10:00PM
from the do-your-own-thing-but-do-it-yourself dept.

The Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis is pleased to formally announce its existence. Founded on the Fourth of July, our intent is to complement, rather than compete with Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica. Membership and advancement in EGnU is open to all Thelemites, regardless of Order affiliation. We encourage the celebration of alternative Masses, and the inclusion of female Saints. Please visit our web site for more information.




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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them.


**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday August 04, @01:42PM

I've looked at your interesting web site, but didn't find the answer to one specific question. Is the E.Gn.U. incorporated as a non-profit? If not, do you intend to incorporate it at some time in the future?


**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by <Aleph> on Friday August 04, @05:03PM

Yes. Details will be forthcoming on the web site.


**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by Mordecai Shapiro on Friday August 04, @10:45PM

The list of saints for E.Gn.U. is quite diverse and interesting, but seeing those who are there I can't help but wonder why Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi (http://www.self-realization.com/ramana.htm) and Nisargadatta Maharaj (http://www.sentient.org/amber/nis.htm) aren't also on the list. Of course, no list can be exhaustive (or it would also be exhausting!), but the recorded dialogues of these two teachers have had such an impact on me that I have to mention them (if only to acquaint people with their existence).


Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
by <Aleph> on Friday August 04, @11:04PM\\
What is the date of Ramana Maharshi's mahasamadhi?\\


  • |Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
    by Mordecai Shapiro on Saturday August 05, @12:05PM\\|

    His dates of incarnation are: 30th Dec. 1879 to 14th April 1950.\\


Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
by <Aleph> on Monday August 07, @08:22AM
I have added Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi. One look at his photo was enough.\\
\\
I will have to do some more research on Nisargadatta Maharaj.\\
\\
By the way, may I link to your The Gnostic Mass - An Appreciation page from our “Writings” page?\\
\\

  • |Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
    by Mordecai Shapiro on Monday August 07, @05:14PM
    |

    You certainly may create a link to that essay. As you might guess I will be checking in on the EGnU website regularly to follow developments.\\
    \\

**A couple questions aboot the EGU**
by Intentionally Left Blank on Sunday August 06, @07:16PM

So, what's the point? Is the interest in Thelema that great that another Gnostic Church should exist? Is it large enough at this point that a strict hierarchy is needed?

Where does the authority of this church stem from? Does the church believe in religious or spiritual authority? Why limit the individuals that can publicly perform the Gnostic Mass (a worthwhile complaint in the “newly-reformed” EGC)?

Don't Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis and Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica mean the same thing?


Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by <Aleph> on Sunday August 06, @10:27PM\\
WoW! I guess you should read the web site before\\
you comment!\\


Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Intentionally Left Blank on Monday August 07, @02:36PM
I read the web site, and here are the answers that I generated myself.\\
\\
“Is the interest in Thelema that great that another Gnostic Church should exist?”\\
\\
Not particularly.\\
\\
“Is it large enough at this point that a strict\\
hierarchy is needed?”\\
\\
No, but we couldn't think of anything else better to do.\\
\\
“Where does the authority of this church stem from?”\\
\\
It doesn't seem to stem from anywhere.\\
\\
“Does the church believe in religious or spiritual authority?”\\
\\
Hopefully not, given that it has none.\\
\\
“Why limit the individuals that can publicly perform the Gnostic Mass (a worthwhile complaint in the “newly-reformed” EGC)?”\\
\\
This was not explained.\\
\\
“Don't Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis and Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica mean the same thing?”\\
\\
I'm not a Latin scholar, but in English, “Universal Gnostic Assembly” and “Universal Gnostic Assembly” mean the same thing.\\
\\
That you would choose to cop out of answering these questions, even if some of the material is repeated in one form or another on the website, does not give me much faith in the bishops of such an organization. If I were to ask the same questions of an officer of the EGC or even the Catholic Church, there would at least be an attempt at giving answers.\\
\\
Is this an organization designed to stroke the egos of self-important, self-serving individuals?\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Phallus of Morethought on Monday August 07, @04:13PM
It always amazes me to see Thelemites going all conservative. There may not be a lot of interest in what EGnU is proposing where you are, but it seems like a natural expression of what many Thelemites in my area have been craving for years.\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by <Akephalos> on Monday August 07, @04:45PM
I will take a stab at this.\\
\\
“Is the interest in Thelema that great that another Gnostic Church should exist?”\\
\\
Is interest to be measured only in numbers? Then, no, I agree. Otherwise, yes.\\
\\
\\
\\
I read the web site, and here are the answers that I generated myself.\\
\\
“Is the interest in Thelema that great that another Gnostic Church should exist?”\\
\\
Not particularly.\\
\\
“Is it large enough at this point that a strict\\
hierarchy is needed?”\\
\\
Again, I agree. On the other hand, if we did not even give that enough thought, we would have gotten hammered on that and rightly so.\\
\\
“Where does the authority of this church stem from?”\\
\\
See answer to next question.\\
\\
“Does the church believe in religious or spiritual authority?”\\
\\
If I understand the meaning of the question, I believe the answer is no. Given the nature of the discussion on gnosis in the philosophy section, authority is from within. The bishops would be an administrative necessity. Concerning the power and authority of the priesthood, I perceive the distinction to be that the church will honor these baptisms, etc, vs. Crowley blessed my predecessor so I can bless you. If you do not believe that this is worth anything, then, there you go.\\
\\
\\
“Why limit the individuals that can publicly perform the Gnostic Mass (a worthwhile complaint in the “newly-reformed” EGC)?”\\
\\
Go right ahead, I will not stop you. Just don't call it EGnU, please. However, I see your point. Well, for me personally, quality control is one issue. Another is accountability. Even the EGC only requires one member of the priesthood to perform in the mass for it to be “kosher”. We will have to discuss this one some more. Thanks. Since we are not associated with the OTO, there are no degree restrictions on holding any office or rank. One need not be affiliated with any other assembly to participate fully.\\
\\
“Don't Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis and Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica mean the same thing?”\\
\\
Yes. To my knowledge. The choice of name is historical. Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica used to be Église Gnostique Universelle. (http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/history_egc.htm)\\
\\
But I am not a French scholar any more than I am a Latin scholar.\\
\\
“That you would choose to cop out of answering these questions, even if some of the material is repeated in one form or another on the website, does not give me much faith in the bishops of such an organization. If I were to ask the same questions of an officer of the EGC or even the Catholic Church, there would at least be an attempt at giving answers.”\\
\\
Sorry, at first glance it was not obvious that you had read the web site.\\
\\
\\
“Is this an organization designed to stroke the egos of self-important, self-serving individuals?”\\
\\
I hope not. Given that my ego is largely unstroked, if that is its purpose, it is failing miserably.\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Intentionally Left Blank on Monday August 07, @07:09PM
What you describe sounds exactly like the EGC, but w/o the OTO connections and w/o as strict of a code.\\
\\
I'm not sure why this justifies the creation of another thelemic religious body. The EGU appears to be a rather liberal organization as opposed to the more conservative EGC. Either way, I would rather see a mid-point reached and one organization formed. Thelemites don't need all of this People's Front of Judea/Judean People's Front balderdash.\\
\\
Small subcultures fare better when they are united, and this might end badly. I can see EGC members saying that they're better because of the affiliation w/ the OTO…that's just the way things go.\\
\\
Oh well, good luck…glad I'm not in the thick of things.\\
\\

  • |Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
    by <Akephalos> on Monday August 07, @10:05PM
    |

    I'm rather hoping it won't go that way. We were careful to make it so that EGC members could enjoy our church without confict with the EGC. I certainly am not giving up my EGC affiliation so I don't expect anyone else to do so.\\
    \\
    On the other hand, if another bishop had answered, you might have gotten completely different answers. We are that young.\\
    \\
    Best of luck to you, too.\\
    \\

  • |Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
    by <Al'latu> on Friday August 11, @11:23PM
    |

    Not exactly like E.G.C. since we are emphasizing & currently performing not just alternate Masses, but other experimental Eucharistic Rites entirely.\\
    \\
    I, for one, very much appreciate the lack of Caliphate connections since it is not my Will to join the Caliphate.\\
    \\
    \\
    93 93/93 Shin Al'latu (yes – yet *another* Bishop)\\
    \\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by <Aleph> on Tuesday August 08, @05:54AM
To Ms. Intentionally Left Blank:\\
\\
Speaking of cop outs - I'd have been happy to take you seriously if you had bothered to use a name…\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Intentionally Left Blank on Tuesday August 08, @09:37AM
I give up…I figure “ILB” is just as good of a name as Aleph. If everyone else insists on using Saturday-morning names, then I'm going to as well.\\
\\
Wouldn't you feel silly if that really _was_ my name? ;-p\\
\\
Yours truly,\\
\\
Ms. Intentionally L. Blank\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Michael Sanborn on Tuesday August 08, @11:05AM\\
Important distinction: Aleph provides an email address. Giving up is okay, though…\\


Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Tuesday August 08, @11:15AM
Why exactly is this distinction important? What bearing does ILB's mundane identity have on his/her arguments (which I don't happen to agree with, by the way)?\\
\\

  • |Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
    by Michael Sanborn on Tuesday August 08, @01:00PM
    |

    On one hand, the issue that I was addressing wasn't ILB's argument, but how much of a priority should be given to responding to someone who chooses to remain anonymous.\\
    \\
    On the other hand, it's valid enough to point out that the distinction is irrational (thanks, Mort!). But like Aleph, I find that sort of thing a bit discouraging.\\
    \\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by <Aleph> on Tuesday August 08, @01:09PM
Well, Aleph is a magical name which I have been using for a some time. I do not consider it a Saturday-morning name. I rather doubt that my mundane name would mean any more to you than my magical name.\\
\\
I see, however, that you do have a sense of humor. From the tone of your original posting, I was not sure that you did. It looked like a “Harley” set of questions to me, having only one answer: “If you have to ask, then you wouldn't understand.”\\
\\
Now that you have stuck out your tongue and winked at me, Ms. Blank, I have no choice but to address your concerns. Please see the new EGnU FAQ page.\\
\\
P.S. Do you really believe that if you called an officer of EGC on the phone and refused to identify yourself, that they would then answer all of your questions?\\
\\

Re: A couple questions aboot the EGU\\
by Patrick Crumhorn on Friday August 11, @11:00PM
“Is the interest in Thelema that great that another Gnostic Church should exist?”\\
\\
I think there is both interest, and concern, among many Thelemites, that the rituals of Thelema not suffer restriction and limitation less than a century into the Aeon. It took the Christians at least a few hundred years before the first Nicene Council was convened.\\
\\
“Is it large enough at this point that a strict\\
hierarchy is needed?”\\
\\
Nope, and therefore there isn't one. But a framework is a useful thing for guiding potential future growth and expansion. The whole thing\\
will probably look a lot different in practice than it does in theory. Most evolving organisms work that way.\\
\\
“Where does the authority of this church stem from?”\\
\\
Let me posit another question in response:\\
“In whom do you place your trust?” Meditation on\\
the real meaning of “gnosis” will be repaid, methinks.\\
\\
“Does the church believe in religious or spiritual authority?”\\
\\
There is no God but Man, kimosabe.\\
\\
“Why limit the individuals that can publicly perform the Gnostic Mass (a worthwhile complaint in the “newly-reformed” EGC)?”\\
\\
Whatever made you think we were? You wanna do\\
a Mass? Do it. You wanna do a Mass under EGnU\\
auspices? Get in touch and let's plan one.\\
No oaths to a Patriarch or Primate necessary. We promise!\\
\\
“Don't Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis and Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica mean the same thing?”\\
\\
Watch out…that way lies madness, or Bishophood.\\
;-)\\
\\
93 93/93\\
\\
Tau Asteri Sappheiros\\
College (remedial school?) of Bishops\\
EGnU\\
\\

**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by <gkraay> on Monday August 07, @01:06AM

93

Thankyou for posting this, it is great to hear other points of view, with regard to Gnostic Church's.
I think the web site and what you are doing is great, my only comment as a member of the OTO and the EGC is this.
I feel that the splintering that is occurring and has been occurring for some time is very counter productive to the Great Work. If we are to ever truly spread the Law of Thelema to all people we must have a cohesiveness within all branches of Thelema that does not exist at this time.
But that being said well done and god luck to you in all you do.

93 93/93

gkraay


Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
by <Aleph> on Monday August 07, @08:15AM
I think the web site and what you are doing is great, my only comment as a member of the OTO and the EGC is this. I feel that the splintering that is occurring and has been occurring for some time is very counter productive to the Great Work.\\
\\
I agree. Unfortunately, this is the result of OTO/EGC rules. According to these rules, those who have taken Orders in EGC may not modify Liber XV or produce a derivative work without permission from the Patriarch. I have examined my copy of Liber OZ quite closely, and cannot find this provision on the phrase “Man has the right to write what he will.”\\
\\
Fortunately, I am not a member of EGC.\\
\\

  • |Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
    by <Akephalos> on Monday August 07, @08:45AM
    |

    I, on the other hand, am a member of the EGC as an ordained deacon and a bishop in the EGnU. I do not see this as a splintering, though there is plenty of room for those that do. This offers me a framework for Thelemic religious experimentation without infringing on the EGC. It will also force\\
    me to write completely new masses rather than adopting Liber XV as a framework. I see this as a good thing.\\
    \\
    EGnU, as Aleph has alluded, is not in competition with the EGC and as far as we (EGnU) are concerned, each may pursue his will through either or both.\\
    \\

Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
by <Al'latu> on Friday August 11, @11:36PM
“I feel that the splintering that is occurring and has been occurring for some time is very counter productive to the Great Work. If we are to ever truly spread the Law of Thelema to all people we must have a cohesiveness within all branches of Thelema that does not exist at this time. “\\
\\
Pardon, me if I misunderstand, but are you saying that in order to spread the meme of *individual* Will as paramount it must be our Wills to fall under the umbrella of a single association ?\\
\\
Does any one else find this contradictory or at least highly unlikely?\\
\\
& which association or organization would fit the bill?\\
\\
Al'latu\\
.\\
\\

**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by <Malgwyn> on Monday August 07, @01:30AM

I loved the site. It adds another dimension to the already diverse (outside of Thelema, at least) Gnostic Ecclesiastic tradition.

The “Rites” section contained Doinel's “Fraction du Pain”, in French. Do you need an English translation?

It was nice to see the “Blue Topaz” again, I still use it in preference to the Star Ruby. I had a version with a commentary that explained the MA'ATian elements and Gematric structure. It disappeared one day, never to be seen again. Do you know who originally penned it?


  • |Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church\\
    by <Aleph> on Monday August 07, @08:07AM
    |

    That would be me. I will post the commentary when I get a chance.\\
    \\
    I'd love an English translation of Doinel's “Fraction du Pain”. Surely it will be better than what I can produce using Babelfish and dim memories of high school French.\\
    \\

**Re: First Open Source Gnostic Church**
by Joe Eckert on Monday August 14, @04:14PM

Hey, it may just be my personal quirk, but isn't one of the the main concepts of Thelema “Do what thou wilt”
These days, that could be described as ” Mind your own buisness ” I looked at the website, I thought it was interesting, and although my kind of sporadic lifestyle prevents me from joining another organization (I have enough going on just with the O.T.O. to keep me farily busy, outside of my 'profane' life) I don't see how it can cause any harm. Keep on keepin' on. Change and progress is wonderful.
p.s. By the way, that's my real name.


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