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  Anatman vs. the HGA

Self Realization Posted by Martin Hettland on Wednesday February 14, @03:01PM
from the you-have-a-point? dept.

[I am from Norway, hope you English speaking readers out there will forgive my (ab-)use of your language.]

I have been looking at the discussion on Thelema and Buddhism, and I wonder if the Holy Guardian Angel is supposed to be identical from incarnation to incarnation, thus making the HGA more like the permanent and individual “atman” (soul) from incarnation to incarnation in Hinduism, as opposed to Buddhism's doctrine, “anatman,” on the human soul as being nonpermanent and nonindividual.




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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them.


**Re: Anatman vs. the HGA**
by <Xnoubis> on Thursday February 15, @10:51AM

I equate Hadit with atman, myself, although AL II:4, “Yet she shall be known & I never,” could be considered a kind of Thelemic anatta. Two different paths to the same truth, I've always thought.

But about the other part of your question, if there is a Thelemic doctrine about whether the HGA spans incarnations, I'm not sure. Does Crowley write about this, anybody? I don't think that I quite agree with his line on reincarnation anyway (we're all reincarnations of one another, it seems to me), but it would be interesting to know what he thought about this.


Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Saturday February 17, @05:20PM
please explain what the word 'anatta' means\\
\\
and how the poetic juxposition between\\
she and I…and known and never\\
\\
create in your mind this connection,\\
it is important for me to understand\\
how you arrive at this far reaching\\
or not so far reaching philosophical\\
apotheosis…\\
\\
Holy guardian Angel being a christianized\\
description of what; an external protective\\
spiritual incarnating force?…autonomus\\
psychic entity?…a deamon?…aeon…an ordeal\\
where by we become strenghtend in our resolve?\\
a spirit guide in some hierarchical order in\\
ascending infinitum…an animated alyph that\\
vouch safes knowledge that speaks to us personaly\\
therfore is a personal projection, of a spiritual/\\
psychic experiance, ect….something only a initiate in some secret society would appreciate?\\
a fluffy feel good 'new age' thang?…what?\\
\\
please be candid and forthcoming, and try to explain as if i was a small child and at the same time a freestyle freethinker…thankz\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by <Xnoubis> on Monday February 19, @07:23PM
> please explain what the word 'anatta' means\\
\\
I fully concur with Anna's answer below. (Who are you, Anna? That was beautiful…) But maybe a little more background about anatta or anatman. Atman is a Hindu concept for the innermost spark of the divine within all beings. One of the revolutionary ideas introduced by the Buddha in contradiction to Hinduism, though, was the idea that there is in fact nothing at our innermost core. No atman, or “anatman,” often spelled “anatta”.\\
\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Tuesday February 20, @04:59AM
|

…now that i am done blasting that SECRET\\
mr arbitrary, i want to thank you Xnoubis for\\
answering my question, about anatta, because that\\
tells me something that i have been tring to understand for a long time, not that i am any closer to the BIG ANSWER, but that my question keeps getting deeper, if anatta means HADIT then in a way Thelema is the divine spark, and the nothing at the core…\\
\\
so buddha was the 'chaos' coming back to meet the spark at the center of nothingness…\\
\\
so Aiwass is another form of Buddha, which\\
is another form of Atman, for awhile there is more emphasis on the nothing at the core, but either way divine spark or nothing, it takes one to make the other, Holy guardian Angel kinda brings it\\
into perspective, in the given incarnation…\\
there is always the anatta and there is the core\\
to put them together is the chore, and the Taoists\\
knew that any rate nature would go on no matter what we did, powerful stuff to be used in the hands of the powerful, for good or ill…\\
better to find your own true will!\\
\\
even so the logos is beyond the kin of the many\\
\\
perhaps that is about to change!\\
\\

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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Anna Teaman on Monday February 19, @09:02AM
The atman/anatman are not directly related to the HGA aspect of godhead. That is, the HGA is not the what is commonly thought of as the soul.\\
\\
The atman/anatman/Hadit/Holy Spirit is the God within us. That is it is the aspect of the divine that reaches up to God. The HGA/Jesus/Krishna is the aspect of God _with_ us. It is that part that reaches down to pull us up. It is also a “personal god.”\\
\\
So, since our experience with this “personal god” is influenced by our personality and expectations, it can be thought of as changing with each incarnation and with each individual.\\
\\
As for the dichotomy of atman and anatman, it is simply a gestalt shift. The atman is often seen as unchanging while the anatman as always so. Both conceptions are true because both atman and anatman are part of the infinite godhead, and how can infinity change or remain the same?\\
\\
Neti-Neti.\\
\\
To answer Xnoubis, Crowley never really developed a firm philosophy dealing with the nature of the HGA. He often switched from “higher self” to “guiding other” and back without really justifying the shifts. At this point I don't recall anything in his writings that indicated a temporal binding of an HGA, but I admit that it has been several years since I read a good portion of his work.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Martin Hetland on Tuesday February 20, @08:11AM
Hi this is Martin Hetland again.\\
\\
I think that Anna's answer was clear and informative, stating clearly that Hadit is someting inside us as opposed to the Holy Guardian Angle being someting outside us, and that these two reaches towards eachother, this is to me resembling the idea of The Beast reaching out for unity with Babalon.\\
\\
But it leaves me wondering where Anna found this information, another thing that comes to my mind is that Hymenaeus Beta prefers the expression “True(or Truer-)self instead of Crowley's own “Higher self”, to describe the HGA.\\
\\
And to me Anna's explanation of the HGA as being something ouside each one of us fits Crowley's HGA description: “Higher self”, better then Hymenaeus Beta's “Truer self”.\\
Crowley's “Higher self” does sound like something divine you can reach up after, while Hymenaeus Beta's “True self” sounds more like something you can find within yourself.\\
Will any of the “Calif O.T.O.” help we out with why the present Calif preferes the expression “True(or Truer-)self?\\
\\
With regards:\\
Martin Hetland.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by <Xnoubis> on Tuesday February 20, @09:26AM
By Anna saying “the aspect of God _with_ us,” I didn't necessarily understand her to be saying “something outside us.”\\
\\
And I can't speak for HB, but “Higher Self” could be taken to mean something in opposition to a “Lower Self,” whereas “True (or Truer) Self” doesn't necessarily suggest an opposition, at least not an opposition to something real.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Tuesday February 20, @10:13AM
opposition, you want opposition, NOT!\\
\\
actually 'True self'…sounds like a great way\\
to say that there is no such thing, and the “truer”\\
your belief, the falser you become, therefore:\\
\\
nothing is true, but that does not imply that therefore, you can do what you bloody well please\\
\\
does that make sense?…i mean in a true way?\\
\\
Ok i got it!…you cannot have truth without its compliment; justice, TRUTH AND JUSTICE, how is that..?\\
\\
and we have the various permutations of THOTH, TEUTH, TOTH, TOOT, HERMES, MESSENGER, MERCURY\\
\\
How many ways is there to say MA'AT?\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Wednesday February 21, @12:48AM
|

>Ok i got it!…you cannot have truth without its compliment; justice, TRUTH AND JUSTICE, how is\\
>that..?\\
\\
Let's not leave out the AMERICAN WAY. The Ubermensch would never forgive us!\\
\\

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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Martin Hettland on Wednesday February 21, @06:16AM
Hello, this is Martin Hettland!\\
\\
Interesting to see that you equate Hadit with Atman.\\
inside the text in the link below:\\
http://www.home.sunrise.ch/~prkoenig/simon5.htm\\
Simon Hinton writes:\\
“The lifeforce is identified in Liber Al as the Hadit principle. Crowley referred to it as “the lion-serpent sun, begetter of life”.”\\
Is the Lion-serpent logo for this site allso a symbol for Hadit?\\
\\
With regards:\\
\\
Martin Hettland.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by <Xnoubis> on Wednesday February 21, @10:18AM
I wish I knew the exact source for the Crowley quote. These symbols have a certain amount of flexibility depending on context. For myself, I don't think of the lion-serpent as Hadit so much as a godform of the reconciliation of opposites, like Baphomet perhaps. From another angle, it is the Beast, as in the tail of the Beast from the Lust card.\\
\\
Upon reflection though, I can see a Hadit connection in a Typhonian mode. The Typhonian tradition makes much of the occasions where Crowley identified Hadit with Set. Now the conjunction of the masculine and feminine principles can be associated with the lion-serpent, or with ShT, Shin-Teth, Set, and so Hadit. But no, that wasn't what I was thinking of at the time.\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Martin Hetland. on Thursday February 22, @06:27AM
|

I was thinking of what Xnobius wrote about the HGA not nessecarely being outside us.\\
And reflecting upon Crowley's definotion of love as being the union of opposites…or was that the union of deifferent aspects, it makes me think og the HGA as something we can have with us, that is, we hace the different aspects inside us, but to get in contact with the HGA we have to unite/reconciliate the differnet aspects/ the opposites within ourselves.\\
Because you can't get a cake without uniting/mixing the different aspects/ingredients of the cake.\\
This is the 2=0 formula at the individual level, i.e., it takes two…you and your HGA.. to find the Ballance/-your true will, the “zero state”at the personal level.\\
At the universial level the 2=0 is reached by you getting a ballance someting much bigger, like all the aspects of the tree of life and thus reaching beond to the “Zero” and universal equilibrum(=ballance)of Nuit.\\
\\
With regards:\\
\\
Matin Hettland.\\
\\

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**Re: Anatman vs. the HGA**
by Rev. Mike Margolin on Monday February 19, @10:06AM

93,
Did Allen Bennet write anything on this subject?
93/93/93
ISN
RvMSM666


Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Arbitrary Complainer on Monday February 19, @10:20AM\\
Did Michael Jackson write a song about this subject?\\
\\
Be a do-er.\\


Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Monday February 19, @10:21PM
stop sucking energy,and be a real person insted of\\
a abitrary complaining nobody that, couldn't write a poem to save his life, if you don't like poetry\\
that is not to your taste then you have to act like a micro fascist psychic vampire right?\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Tuesday February 20, @12:00AM\\
Why not?\\
\\
Do a be-er\\


Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Tuesday February 20, @05:13AM
Mordecai, you blow me away\\
\\
Do a be-er…that's perfect!\\
\\
ya he can try, fat chance!\\
\\
they be tring to do be-ers since the beginning!\\
\\
some are do being, be doers…\\
\\
some are just priviledged, so they stand back and\\
play god…\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Wednesday February 21, @12:50AM\\|

I think of God as play, the divine “lila” in Hindu terminology.\\


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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Rev. Michael S. Margolin on Thursday February 22, @09:15AM
93,\\
Since Allen became a Yellow Robe and was a close friend of Al's the question was apropriate for this thread.\\
Your reaction/comment however was very inapropriate. I'm sure you already realised this when you posted. So Kiss my ass you fucking lil twit.\\
93/93/93\\
ISN\\
Rev. Mike 666\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Arbitrary Complainer on Thursday February 22, @10:59AM
Yes, and since the majority of Bennet's work is on the Internet, you should be able to find out yourself.\\
\\
And as for appropriate comments…\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Rev. Mike Margolin on Thursday February 22, @06:46PM\\|

93,\\
It was more of a direction, than a question.\\
93/93/93\\
ISN\\
Mikey 666\\


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**Re: Anatman vs. the HGA**
by <RIKB> on Wednesday February 21, @04:19AM

The idea in Buddhism isn't that there isn't anything there to be labeled “self,” but that what we attach that label to is dynamic and constantly changing rather than static and eternal (in the sense of being outside of time and the modifications that attend time). In a sense I think the will is eternal because “momentum” on any plane can't be created or destroyed. At the same time, I think the idea of the HGA is definitely dynamic – as Crowley says many times, the primary quality of any god is “going.” In terms of metaphysics, I think Thelema is more consonant with Buddhism than with Hinduism. See particularly Buddhist treatments of “voidness” in relation to Nuit, which is barely touched upon in Hinduism.
The distinction – I feel – between Buddhism and Thelema on this score is that Buddhists seek to end this “going” while Thelema embraces it; in Buddhism, the wheel of transmigration is turned by desire, while in thelema the operative concept is will. In other words, the world views are rather similar, while the idea of what to do about the state of affairs diverges rather markedly.

93 93/93
RIKB


Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Martin Hettland on Wednesday February 21, @06:23AM
Martin Hettland\\
\\
I agree with RIKB, in “Magick without tears” Crowley writes both that “the fun is in the going itself”, and that the thelemites find joy in “the continual victory over sorrow”, the sorrow of the world being there basically as a challenge to be overcome.\\
\\
Reagards:\\
\\
Martin Hetland.\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Wednesday February 21, @06:39AM
|

…my magick word…u ar a lila…uaralila\\
\\
it came to me, also… anta ananta kia!\\
\\
another is, eurea…they all came to me\\
\\
in a dream…i share it!,,freely\\
\\
even if i am a bit of a fighter!\\
\\
93 always..zeyes\\
\\

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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Wednesday February 21, @11:56AM
>In terms of metaphysics, I think Thelema is more consonant with Buddhism than with Hinduism.\\
\\
There's no doubt that Crowley himself was more into Buddhism, at least at the time of the writing of the BOTL. Hence his horror at such passages as “Remember all ye that existence is pure joy”, etc. which is certainly “more consonant” with Hinduism than with Buddhism.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Tim Maroney on Wednesday February 21, @07:32PM
I've seen no reason to think that Crowley's account of his mental state at the time of the revelation is accurate or honest. I also don't see any reason to believe his statement that he viewed such verses with horror. This claim seems unsupported by his journals, and his account is full of apparent contradictions – such as, for instance, claiming that he was no longer performing magick, while also claiming to have illuminated the interior of the Great Pyramid by magical means.\\
\\
Crowley is a salesman on the subject of the BOTL, and as with any salesman, his account of the product and his atitudes towards it should be taken with a grain of salt.\\
\\
Tim\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Mordecai Shapiro on Thursday February 22, @04:41PM
|

How about this rewrite?\\
\\
There's no doubt that Crowley portrayed himself as more into Buddhism, at least at the time of the writing of the BOTL. Hence his later claims of horror at such passages as “Remember all ye that existence is pure joy”, etc. which is certainly “more consonant” with Hinduism than with Buddhism.\\
\\

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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Martin Hetland. on Thursday February 22, @06:31AM
Thelema might be more consonat with Buddhism then with Hinduism in terms of metaphysics, but in Buddhism, as opposed to Thelema, the human will is thought of something that is changing all he time, and not as something constant.\\
\\
Regards: Martin Hettland.\\
\\

Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Thursday February 22, @06:28PM
…i feel that this is very crucial, what is meant\\
by saying that the human will is changing all the time, when i think of a system(religion) such as\\
Hinduism, i would have to take into consideration the social-political context of the times, meaning\\
that i do not see the context as rising out of Hinduism as it were, rather i see the religion as rising out of the social-political context of the time, therefore it has something to do with the\\
particular manifestation of the human will at that\\
moment in the cycles of becoming and or history, so does this mean that some people understood that\\
change is constant, and so therefore a religion arose that was based on this understanding, or was\\
it somehow the other way around, that change itself created the understanding that gave rise to the religion, because it all begins to sound like\\
noboby had a clue, so they just invented anything\\
that somehow inbodied the sence of mystery and paradox, and a whole mythos rose up around that!…meanwhile babies are being born, lovers are breaking taboos, intrigue is happening in the kings court, and dreams are dreamed,epic poems are written, and sceams are sceamed, and the war at the end of time is prepared for…where is the will in all this?\\
\\
i believe that same is the case with Thelema, nobody has a clue, they merely inherit a concoction of ideas and convoluted secret systems\\
of numbers and graphs, concatenated occult symbols\\
watered up ritual, parifinalia, Crowleys ring ect.\\
and the whole rigamaro starts all over, meanwhile\\
now we say “Do what thow wilt” and “Love is the\\
law”…and exalt the “WILL” where as before it\\
was tacitly acknowledged that the will is a willy,\\
so it was covered in mounds of skulls and carved yonis….(and the conqueror is NOT the universe of the cycle, cycle)….\\
\\
hari har har\\
\\

Nobody had/has a clue.\\
by Martin Hetland on Tuesday February 27, @01:48PM
Thelema is not so complicated that none should have had/- do have a clue about what it is all about.\\
\\
Even if A.C. aggrees with the Hindus', the Buddhists' and the Gnostics' view that matter is something negative, he differs from them in describing the negative matter as ”“the First Matter of the Work”, which is to be transmuted into gold.” That is, according to Crowley we humans can improve the negative matter.\\
\\
In this he resembles the alchemical idea(i.e. turning base matter/-something worthless, into gold/-something precious)of the Rosicrucians which he hold in high regard, and considered to be the forerunners of O.T.O., through the Fraternity of Luxor.\\
\\
With regards:\\
\\
Martin Hetland.\\
\\

Thelema's HGA versus Buddhism's “nonsoul”doctrine.\\
by Martin Hetland on Tuesday February 27, @01:50PM
Thelema is not so complicated that none should have had/- do have a clue about what it is all about.\\
\\
Even if A.C. aggrees with the Hindus', the Buddhists' and the Gnostics' view that matter is something negative, he differs from them in describing the negative matter as ““the First Matter of the Work”, which is to be transmuted into gold.” That is, according to Crowley we humans can improve the negative matter.\\
\\
In this he resembles the alchemical idea(i.e. turning base matter/-something worthless, into gold/-something precious)of the Rosicrucians which he hold in high regard, and considered to be the forerunners of O.T.O., through the Fraternity of Luxor.\\
\\
With regards:\\
\\
Martin Hetland.\\
\\

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|Re: Thelema's HGA versus Buddhism's “nonsoul”doctrine.\\
by Shader XX on Tuesday February 27, @05:41PM
|

therefore we are all clueless/clued alchemists\\
with fancy titles…and arch sounding explanations\\
because we adhear to a system that makes us important, to some fraternity…which is another way of saying, that knowledge is always passed down secretly, as in the past the Holy Roman church would torcher you for it, now that knowledge is lorded over by Caliphs and his cabal,\\
and they are the over lords, nevertheless knowledge is passed through, in various ways, sometimes cloaked in veils right before your very eyes, sometimes it happens spontainiously, the synchronicity manifests in mysterious ways, sometimes it is passed on, on some street corner\\
with a look in the eye, it has nothing to do with offical anything, the will is free must be free\\
regardless of all the trapings of official this and that, regardless of symbols and signs, it is free to transmute matter into pure energy, on one hand i respect those whom are initiates in OTO, on\\
the other hand when i start to hear that offical\\
tonality in thier voice, i have great reserve,\\
secret knowledge is passed through the ages by initiates whom incarnate, to fullfill some initiation from past lives, that may be inspite of any current official order and its cadre, so to the official know it alls, i say this, mind how you pass knowledge, and watch the arrogance level in your intent, remember a king may be concealed,\\
which is another way of saying a fool!…i hope\\
i get a few ganders up, then i know that i am going the great alchemy…high regards!!!\\
\\

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Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by <RIKB> on Monday February 26, @12:06AM
Is the will something constant in Thelema? I don't think that's the case. Constant in terms of its role or its centrality to our experience, perhaps, but in terms of its particular activity at a given time, I don't think so. Personally, I think of willing as a dialogical process, in which will is a third that mediates between two terms (self and not-self for example). In that the terms connected through will are not constant, neither is the will-relationship that connects them. Will creates meaning by preserving a kind of antagonism between terms – division for the chance of union. I think there's a very close relationship between the notions of desire in Buddhism and will in thelema. Efforts by modern thelemites to avoid, deny, or erase the rather close and natural connection between desire and will are acting out of some kind of subconscious residual Puritanism IMO.\\
\\
93 93/93\\
RIKB\\
\\

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|Re: Anatman vs. the HGA\\
by Shader XX on Monday February 26, @03:57AM
|

….will creates meaning by preserving a kind of\\
antagonism between terms> BINGO!\\
\\
and with that my will thus creates through my self/notself…through the plethora of phenomena\\
through a kind of effortless effort, i come to know that which i cannot know, to merely regurgitate formula, takes away the friction of\\
this creative desire/tantra, this hedonic coincedence of opposites, that allows spontainous\\
gnosis, to see beauity in uglyness, to enjoy all\\
things of sense and rapture, everything, all contrivance is diminished, all pretence, all scripture of all so-called inspiration from on high, is ment to be read and then forgotten, “all\\
time crushed back into eternity”\\
\\
will as desire, passion, black sun of my delerium\\
\\
RIBH zyez XX93 ananta kia\\
\\

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  The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them.


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