On Liber Oz

93,

I agree whole-heartedly.

The problem lies in the area of not going away if asked, such as Rock Concert and Exotic Erotic Ball protests.

I'm am known for confronting these good civil Christians exercising their civil liberties.

My first statement is “Do we do this at your churches on Sundays or any church functions?“

Mike that's a question! Not really lol

My 2nd statement is “Do you support freedom of religion?”

Mike that's a question too!

No not when you know the answer when you ask it, then its an action or statement not an inquiry.

My last Statement is “If you are offending people here more than converting them shouldn't you stop?”

The answer has always been no.

But I'll keep asking and trying lol

Good luck to us all on this tiny blue Shit Ball.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666

…notice there is no coincedence, that central scrutinizer(no identifer)…and the below highly technical post, where the last line reads: bla bal bla, the CENTRAL principle of Thelema

see, maybe it matters little, however when people talk about being honest about thier “true wills” ect, they should be honest on all fronts, and not practice pettyness…

it is not a competition, to show how thelemic you can be by acting like a little uptight citizen!

but yes i am a fan of Zappa…not crappa! creedy!

and we know what Zappa thought, information is not necessarly knowledge, knowledge is not ncessarly wisdom, and wisdom is not necessarly truth,ect.

and in this case i would add true belief is not necessarly proof that there is anybody home, even though the lights are on!!!!

think on these things!………………….93XOX

…notice there is no coincedence, that central scrutinizer(no identifer)…and the below highly technical post, where the last line reads: bla bal bla, the CENTRAL principle of Thelema

A mere coincidence. But I've got to admit that I really don't read your posts at all anymore. I'd be really surprised if you actually had anything to say.

they should be honest on all fronts, and not practice pettyness…

Practice what you preach, or please just shut up. Sorry if my post seems inflamatory. I feel that what I am saying here is in every way honest and not at all petty.

Eventually I will go back to just ignoring you.

93/93 Frater Virbius

…yes that is a good thing to do, ingore what you cannot face in your self!

but what could i expect, from someone that calls himself a christian thelemite…?

ignor away ignor your own self-important bullshit ignor the fact that you are just stuborn and blind faith can not and will never be Thelemic…

ignor what it is you cannot understand ignor the ignor-ance on your own position ignor the overwhelming facts, since when does a christian that calls himself a thelemite HAVE ANY THING TO SAY, that matters shit to a tree!…ignor that which does not act like a false ego with a vengence, because your false ego is all you have to cling to, anybody can take a position, and argue it for for all your worth, like in some collage debate class, that does not mean you have anything to say, except to the slave mentality, which if truth be told is your reason for being here, as if, it it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, who cares about principle!!!…if you are totaly lost in SPIRIT! being dishonest with your self is not evidence of thelemic spirit and troting out some educated guesses, does not make a Thelemite!…no matter how slick your credentails!

but setting aside what is and is not Thelemic in spirit!

who do you want to say something to?

somebody that is impressed with your educated facade'…your ability to phrase some important sounding language in a legal sounding jargon

hey i am impressed!…hey the Catholic Church sounds very impressive, very legal, very rational! they REALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY!….so should i listen to them?…….HELL NO!

what are you afraid of?…just being a Thelemite? and if that dosn't work you can always go back to the Catholic Chruch…and be a drunk monk!

put on some sack cloth and pray yourself into paradise!

yes please do ignore what you cannot possibly understand!…because it is NON-rational!!!!!!

and this way folks to the next attraction! off to this side we have the Daath ride…

but of course, you have to leave your “rationality”(pre-concieved notions about reality) at the door of perception…

(0)(-o)()(OO)(o)ooo

I am so brain dead, ignorant, and uncool that I am just going to ignore you now.

…you can ignore me intil your dull mind impoldes, it is no odds, but you can't ignore your own self-deception, there are plenty of small minded people like you, that like to talk big. and there are plenty of small minded people that will even pretend to listen you, fool yourself, pretend you are an important person, you are just a little phony..jirk!

gad you sound like a christain!!!

( i talked to this twerp through e-mail, he really is an insufferable snob, he really plays games)!!!

I am serious as a fucking heart attack:

I WANT YOU BANNED

Yes, I've talked to you through e-mail. I've heard your story. The reason that you were, for all intents and purposes THROWN OUT of the O.T.O. is as follows:

a) You are an idiot
b) You are an asshole
c) You are irritating as all fucking get out.

I WANT YOU BANNED

later asshole.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Mike does not understand Thelema at all, that's simply not true. However, I had almost the same reaction to his article. It's as if he's saying “Don't take Crowley too seriously man, you might upset someone”. I thought that was the point? I thought people were supposed to be upset enough to stir their feeble asses into grok'ing what the hell Thelema is about, finding their True Wills instead of wandering aimlessly through life thinking they've got it “all figured out”.

“A function imperfectly performed injures not only itself but everything associated with it”

93, Yes, in a way don't take Crowley too seriously, but broader. Don't take any Ideology, religion, or philosophical belief too seriously. As for stars and orbits that would work if it were accepted on a worldwide basis, but that will never happen. The only time man unites is to better or increase his survival. Cultures, Ideologies and religions will always and forever compete. Just like the governments that make them behave. So as far as my article being presented only in the Thelemic light I'd say no, it was more of a generalist piece on society, using a Thelemic doctrine to raise a point on the Paradox of individual freedom in any given society.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666

As for stars and orbits that would work if it were accepted on a worldwide basis, but that will never happen.

I can't see how you could say this. This is once again the basis of my argument with your viewpoint. Please reread the Introduction to “Magick”.

The only time man unites is to better or increase his survival.

The fact is that this is precisely what is at issue. It may not be clear at this present moment, but there will come a day, soon, when many will wish they had considered this. Anyone who does not see the danger is simply in denial if you ask me.

The media and government do a wonderful job of keeping us in denial by their lies and coverups. Organized religion is by all means under the definition of Government, whether one chooses to believe it or not.

Cultures, Ideologies and religions will always and forever compete.

As will become apparent in the article that I am preparing, I have a strong and unshakeable doctrine of the value of differing cultures, ideologies and religions. One of my most scathing criticisms of the Christian Church has been the well documented and widespread destruction of primitive cultures in the name of “Evangelism”.

So as far as my article being presented only in the Thelemic light I'd say no, it was more of a generalist piece on society, using a Thelemic doctrine to raise a point on the Paradox of individual freedom in any given society.

In the end, you probably hold the upper hand in the argument. We all KNOW that there is more to “Do What Thou Wilt” than “Whatever the fuck I want”, and it seems to me your present case is along that very well known, valid line of reasoning. I am only pointing out that we do not at present know the limits of our abilities (please read the forementioned introduction) and that certain limitations you are placing on yourself and others are incorrect foredrawn conclusions. There is more at stake than meets the eye, and to limit yourself, and others, by placing premature bounds on your philosophy will come back to bite you in the end. Suffice to say that there are limits. That being the essence of your argument, I have no debate. I feel that it was better stated by one of the contributers above though, who said that Liber Oz and Liber Al do not use the words “free” or “freedom” even once, but put forth the necessary restriction: “You have no right but to do your will”.

Personally, as concerns this, and many such matters of limit, I side with William Blake:

“How can one know what is enough unless one first knows what is too much” - Blake, “The Marriage of Heaven and Hell”

This is the essence of my choosing to marry Crowley to my Christ, hopefully that metaphor is not too vulgar for you. If it is, go fuck yourself! :p

Just kidding and you know it Mike…

93 Frater Virbius

93 lol, This is the essence of my choosing to marry Crowley to my Christ, hopefully that metaphor is not too vulgar for you. If it is, go fuck yourself! :p

Just kidding and you know it Mike… 93 Frater Virbius

Um lol heheheh I was wondering is masterbation a form of homosexuality? lol

If so not only do I fuck myself on a ritualistic daily basis but I guess I'm a gay man that only likes women besides myself lol

I love Paradoxs

93/93/93
ISN
Rev Mikey 666

“For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence.

“It appears from the Magical Records of Frater Perdurabo that He made this particular sacrifice on an average about 150 times every year between 1912 e.v. and 1928 e.v.

“It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of the Magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood, but his creative power.”

Myself, I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

I also wholly agree with you that “this is THE central principle of Thelema”. I don't really think it could be better said.

“if everyone in a society was following their proper orbit (doing their true will) then there would be no conflict and everybody would be free”

To hell with all of you (one or two idiots really) who say that my conviction, my faith, or my belief causes me to be ignorant. I hold this statement above to be of absolutely primary essence. I believe this with all of my heart, mind, body and soul.

Those of you who choose to conflict with me should be reminded/warned that I hold to a literal interpretation of Liber Oz as well as the more common philosophical approach.

93/93 Frater Virbius

…now the little snob is making threats,…oh big man, what a good little christain!

want to kill me, you little creep! you and what crusade!..now run along and play with your Bible

of course nobody will touch this with a ten foot post!

fuck christainity!…i am on the other hand a Thelemite…!

and i will defend my freedom of mind and soul with my life!…every man and every woman is a STAR

not a crusifix!!!

                                                                                                                                                                 ...oh and please be so good as to, ignore me

but you didn't, you had to defend christianity!

classic schizo! people?

a christian that pretends to be a Thelemite?

or something more sinister?

93,

I just reread Liber OZ and is does not promise “total freedom”.

Liber OZ

It does, in fact, lay a heavy restriction.

“thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay.” - AL. I. 42-3

This is not “total freedom”. This is a very excellent way to live. It does come with the responsibility of acting according to one's true will. So, while I will call it desirable, I will not call it “total freedom”. Worse, as you point out, everyone has to act thusly as well.

Curious, I grepped for free and did not the phrase “free” in either Liber OZ or Liber AL.

93 93/93

Akephalos

It has always bothered me that, in astronomy, stars sometimes collide.

This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

its words give total freedom

93,

This one is too easy too lol You took it out of context bro. And in the piece I state the same thing you do, with freedom, come responsibilities. (Thats the PARADOX!!!!!!!) That is the point of the article. I'm loving this lol

93/93/93
ISN
A totally busting up Rev. Mikey 666

P.S. One does not have to use the words free or freedom to discuss it.

the truth is…“every man and every woman is a star”

93,

This one is too easy.

Stars are slaves of their orbit.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666

P.S. Next lol

93,

You were not rude in the least. Hell you were down right polite.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666

P.S. I'm much much more than just a Thelemite.

Wow.

93,

Manifest Destiny is no different than the Nazi Ideal of world domination. I suppose you like Hitler's dream as well. And if you do, well I support your right to belief, I just don’t agree with it. Would you mind me writing a poem on how the Great Spirit told me to tell all his people to massacre the whites and take back this land? I really don’t think that would fly to well with the general public and federal government, but I’m sure the Indian Nations wouldn’t mind it as much as the non-Indians lol Again Freedom is a two edged sword. “Jack Parsons”

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mike666
AKA
White Cloud
1/4 Bitter Root Indian

93,

OOOOoopps, Um I did write that poem lol “The Last Peyote' Song” CR “91” So I'm as guilty as the rest lol Least I'm honest about it lol :P

93/93/93
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Lil Devil Mikey 666

Yeah, I found the essence of the original article to be impenetrable in the same way. I address that in the long post above beginning “I don't see how you could say that…This is the essence of my argument with your viewpoint”. As stated there “suffice to say there are limits” is somewhat inarguable. Where those limits reside certainly depends on the situation, and as also stated there I feel that the central mistake made by Rev. Mikey in his presentation was that he began to prescribe general limitations to all applications of Liber Oz.

As concerns the worship point you brought up, I don't have a definite answer, I can only say that like many parabolic philosophical writings, what you suggest seems to be implied. It also does not say “Man has the right to masturbate” unless you consider that an application of “make love where and with whom he will” but that does seem to be a bit of a stretch in interpretation. And I think we can say, safely, with the advocacy of science in our corner, that Crowley masturbated.

93, The recent moderation debate just demonstrates that. Now there's a paradox worth contemplating!

This is the paradox I tried to point out in my article lol. But all the posts actually pointed it out better by example lol

While we're on things that bother us about Liber OZ, though, I've often been vaguely uncomfortable about the fact that it doesn't declare the right to worship as one will – aside from the fact that “worship” has two syllables. How about “man has the right to groove on god as he will?”

Agreed, that should be in there too. Thank you for your post. You are most helpful.

93/93/93
ISN
Rev. Mikey 666

Furthermore, a point that I doubt many would hear me argue, but the text absolutely states “There is no God but Man” very prominently at the beginning.

Still… I hold to be true what I concluded above, that “To Worship” even “God” is implied. Crowley's stance on “God” is quite contradictory throughout his writings. One point that I don't think people often take into account is that he used a great deal of sarcasm and intentional comic deceit in his writings. As I've stated my opinion before, I think he was “full of shit” more often than not. I don't mean this in the respect that he didn't know what he was talking about, but that he was intentionally, consciously thumbing his nose at the reader, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, with the clear intent of teaching the reader to distinguish between content and bullshit.

I'm not going to say that I have a good understanding of Crowley's stance on God. I think I do. He was very obtuse. Ultimately, I know what I get out of MY interpretation of his stance on God, and I have found so much value in his Theology that I have chosen to make the study of his works (Crowley) a focus of my life.

In summary, remember that I am a Christian who believes in an Objective and Personal God whom I absolutely worship. And yet, “There is no God but Man”.

My head hurts. It is late. I'm going to stop playing “Aleister Explains Everything” and leave something to the deductive reasoning skills of the reader.

Psalm 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

I have to disagree that “Reality is subjective”. Avogadro's number and Pi are certainly not subjective, and they are both very much reality. People's interpretations of reality are, by definition, subjective. I agree with the whole maps and models theory of Robert Anton Wilson and Tim Leary. Reality, ultimately is our perception of it, and our Science is our best take on explaining what we experience. But reality is NOT subjective, reality is by definition OBJECTIVE. Our perception is what is subjective.

Love you bro. Just yakking.

93 Virbius

93, Ehh, thats just your reality :P But I did love your post. Thanks for the help.

93/93/93
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Mikey 666

I guess you could conclude that reality is subjective by skipping a step. Don't misinterpret what I've said as meaning that reality is not plastic, on the contrary, I want to say “within bounds it is” but I wouldn't even agree with that statement. Reality is plastic without bounds, we just are presently unaware of the limits of our abilities, as I've pointed out before.

But that is Objective in my opinion, it is proven by repeatable experiment. Some people here may know the names of the physicists and their conclusions better than I, but I know of this fact of reality from experience. Our beliefs shape our reality around us, there is no question in my mind about this, but the reality around us exists whether we believe or no! It just changes based on our choices, and most notably the subtle choices of bearing and that funny word: Faith.

Pardon me if this seems off-topic, and I have no intention to Evangelise per se, but a story of Jesus seems just the thing right here. Although in many cases he is portrayed as the Heirophant, an active channel between the Divine and the Earthly, in one anecdote a person he has just healed praises him for his power which has caused the healing. Jesus replies “On the contrary, it is your faith that has healed you” as if he saw himself as being merely a placebo in the circumstance.

Whatever it takes to believe in miracles man if you ask me. Ask and ye shall recieve, believe and the thing will be done.